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Old 05-22-2005, 06:29 PM   #1
WJM
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Default Megasquirt EMS

Just wondering if anyone here is running one on an EJ engine....i know there are a few running them on EA82's...im planning to get one and run it on my RX.

I would like to share some information to get my project rolling.
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Old 05-22-2005, 07:32 PM   #2
8Complex

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The trouble would be the crank/cam sensor wheels, as you can't use any of the existing ones. You would need to go with a MSnEDIS setup, then nab an EDIS setup from the junkyard and make it work. The biggest problem with that setup, IMO, is the lack of idle solenoid control. I really wish the people working on the UltraMegasquirt project would hurry up, and also release a unit with at LEAST two ignition channel outputs, on top of an idle solenoid output.

And to answer the question, I have yet to hear of anyone using one on their EJ-series motor in a car.
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Old 05-22-2005, 08:31 PM   #3
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ive been looking..skimming really, and i did see a fast idle using a bosch peice.

but idle as in the way EJ's control idle?
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:49 PM   #4
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You'd never get it to control idle like a stock Subaru would. The stock IAC is a bipolar stepper motor type, which requires 4 pull-to-ground inputs. The Megasquirt on it's own can only control a BAC (Bypass Air Control), which is a solenoid that lets air in through pulsing, much like using a boost controller type valve to let air in. The Megaquirt only provides a single wire to control the idle.

The Bosch piece is some sort of a mechanically controller idle-up unit, from what I remember in my readings. Found one to read up on, look for "The Auxiliary Air Valve" here -- http://www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm -- it is a valve that closes when heated up from heat soak on the engine somewhere. It seems to also heat up via. a wire connected from the fuel pump circuit or some other only-hot-while-running wire. A nice piece, but you'll still need to control the idle through fueling and timing only.

To be honest, I don't think I've ever actually tried to tune idle and revving down to idle with an IAC of some sort. I always had something working, whether or not it was working correctly is another story.
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:17 AM   #5
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interesting.....

I know that MS is open source, and im sure that with enough brain power we could use the stock SUBARU peice to control the idle...anything is possible after all....once I get a MS in hand and see its idle properties up close and look a the code...I'm sure I could make it work.

I cant rely on the stock idle stuff on my EA82s for when im done...the throttlebody I will be using wont have that magical idle control screw... I'll be using an EJ style TB.
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Old 05-23-2005, 11:39 AM   #6
8Complex

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The EJ throttle bodies do have an "idle control screw", but it's basically just adjusting the angle at which the throttle plate closes..

The MS itself just doesn't have the outputs needed to run an IAC properly, however you might be able to find out how to make a daughterboard to run a more standard type (GM) IAC properly. I know people make daughterboards for things, but I don't understand into electronics side of things enough to figure out how it is really done.

It looks like the UltraMegaSquirt will be able to control a standard stepper-motor IAC like a GM -- http://www.megasquirt.info/UMS.htm

If you want to read up a little more on the systems, or have some input, I suggest subscribing to their online forums at www.msefi.com
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:58 PM   #7
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those were my next steps once I got everything rolling....then its time for some serious late night lurking-searching...
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Old 11-18-2005, 04:23 PM   #8
FoundSoul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
You'd never get it to control idle like a stock Subaru would. The stock IAC is a bipolar stepper motor type, which requires 4 pull-to-ground inputs. The Megasquirt on it's own can only control a BAC (Bypass Air Control), which is a solenoid that lets air in through pulsing, much like using a boost controller type valve to let air in. The Megaquirt only provides a single wire to control the idle.

This was true with the MS-I... but not with the MS-II which is designed to control a 4 wire stepper motor IAC. And it works nicely. http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2
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Old 11-18-2005, 04:27 PM   #9
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good thing ive got one of those laying around.
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:07 PM   #10
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I think IAC is less of a concern with MS-II - the trigger is the bigger problem. I have time and time again, asked about the possibility of someone knowing the code to write up the decoding routines to no avail. It holds a lot of promise, but at this point we're too small to be counted (they have the router board running CAN to worry about). The way I see it, with the MS-I CPU, if someone know enough HC08 assembly, one could technically hack out a piece of code to decode the RS crank wheel (6 teeth) with the help of the cam wheel (3 teeth in between Cyl #1 and Cyl #3). I knew the logic - I just wasn't confident and comfortable with the code to modify the existing code without breaking it (Not to mention the fact that I don't have a board myself - my car is my daily driver). Do you know how the other EJ crank wheel is like in relation to the cam wheel? All I knew is that it has way more teeth, a short break and a long break. Information is the key - and I believe for the EJs there are really 2 kinds of crank wheel we're dealing with. The price sure beats the hell out of major EM products with lots of functionality, but only if we could get the basics down for running it on a EJ motor
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:22 PM   #11
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Jerry at DIYautotune.com has an EJ wheel, i had a spare....he will be working on a 'crank decoder' as he called it.
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:34 PM   #12
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If you are not an ECU hacker and want stock driveability then run away from MS. I've tuned and installed a couple of different MS ECUs. They are interesting and inexpensive. People have hacked stuff on to support many features but you do get what you pay for. It's like the original release of linux - if you're not a geek then don't bother.

For the wheel decoding maybe we can brainstorm on how the signals are decoded to come up with the proper info to pass on to those who could code it.

As I understand there are 2 different triggering schemes on Subarus.

-Michael
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:36 PM   #13
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Meh..........

Yeah, Crank+Cam.
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Old 11-19-2005, 01:41 AM   #14
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As I understand it there are 2 different patterns of crank+cam signal used in the EJ series engines. I've begun working out the pattern for my V4 engine. I think it's the more modern pattern. I know the V8 has the same teeth on the crank as my V4 and another customer's V2. Can't say about the legacy turbo... I've got photos of the wheels somewhere...

-Michael
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Old 11-19-2005, 03:09 AM   #15
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I believe most turbo'd EJ have a more than 6 teeth on the crank wheel is it not? The 6 teeth crank wheel is easy enough to decode once you feed the cam wheel signal in.

Is the drivability that bad? Most Subaru's with MS are either doing fuel only, or using EDIS for spark. I think as a totally stand-alone it still has ways to go, but as a fuel/ignition only computer this should be good enough (which is what I was intending to do, if only it can decode the stock crank/cam wheel)
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Old 11-19-2005, 07:42 AM   #16
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it works well...you just have to keep working at it to get it to run how you like it.....or have it tuned by a professional tuner.
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Old 11-19-2005, 11:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d00f
If you are not an ECU hacker and want stock driveability then run away from MS. I've tuned and installed a couple of different MS ECUs. They are interesting and inexpensive. People have hacked stuff on to support many features but you do get what you pay for. It's like the original release of linux - if you're not a geek then don't bother.

-Michael

I think you'll find several hundred (thousands?) owners of MegaSquirted daily driven vehicles of all makes and models on the msefi.com forums that would disagree with you in a BIG way. I initially tuned my daily driven MR2 in January and didn't need to touch it again until last week when I decided to play with my accel enrichments a bit in preparation for an autocross-- they don't matter as much for the street but I wanted to dial them in a bit before the race. (first event all year, too busy with DIYAutoTune.com so far)
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Old 11-19-2005, 12:07 PM   #18
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OMGHi2U....we are now past 100k memebers.
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Old 11-19-2005, 12:18 PM   #19
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I believe the problem is specific to EJs - no native trigger mechanism and no IAC support until the MS-II came out (and of course, that still has no native trigger for EJs which makes it hell to do ignition with it). I believe it will work well, if it's wired and coded to support the native EJ triggers. I have no intention of letting it run the whole car since I want to run the stock ECU parallel to it so esp for my case, it's a matter of tuning to get the car running well on the streets
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Old 11-20-2005, 03:17 AM   #20
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Just counted the other EJ crank wheel - no need for cam sensor since Cyl #1 can be distinguished from the crank wheel. Essentially a 36 teeth wheel, starting with the trigger at 60* BTDC Cyl #1, it goes t-2g-16t-2g-t-2g-12t.
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:33 AM   #21
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*subscribes*
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Old 06-06-2006, 03:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb
Just counted the other EJ crank wheel - no need for cam sensor since Cyl #1 can be distinguished from the crank wheel. Essentially a 36 teeth wheel, starting with the trigger at 60* BTDC Cyl #1, it goes t-2g-16t-2g-t-2g-12t.
No, cylinder 1 cannot be distinguished from the crank wheel. You can distinguish 1 or 4 since it takes 720 crank degrees for a complete engine cycle there is no way to know the phase of the engine. If you run phased injection versus full sequential this will be sufficient. There is no problem with running wasted spark so in that area this is a non-issue.

-Michael
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Old 06-06-2006, 08:49 PM   #23
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I have been tinkering for a couple of months with MSII to take charge of fuel only on my boosted 2.5RS. I've had it idling off the MS several times, but haven't yet driven in anger with MS controlling the fuel (I'm not an experienced tuner, so I've been working on modifying the MS to 'capture' a pulse width driven by the stock ECU, in order to log and build up a starting map - it's working BTW).
I wasn't happy with the idle quality running the MSII off the tach output of the ECU (bank firing), so I wrote some code to decode the Cam sensor (7 tooth 1-3-1-2 pattern). That way, with two injector drivers I can run 1+3 and 2+4, where out of each pair one gets squirted like stock, and the other is 0.25 engine cycles earlier than stock. That improved the idle quality heaps.
Given that the crank sensor is a much simpler tooth pattern, I think this code could be extended to crank+cam decoding. The biggest issue is that I'm using the VR conditioning circuit plus timer input for the cam sensor, and obviously you'd need another one, which standard MSII just doesn't have.
I'd be happy to make the code available to anyone who's interested (I'm modifying off the v2.54 base) with the strong caveat that the code has not yet run a car on the road. Having said that, I've done up to an hour of logs with this decoder, and the monitor variable I use to detect when it loses cam sensor sync says it never has.
Cheers,
Mark.

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Old 06-06-2006, 09:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoundSoul
I think you'll find several hundred (thousands?) owners of MegaSquirted daily driven vehicles of all makes and models on the msefi.com forums that would disagree with you in a BIG way. I initially tuned my daily driven MR2 in January and didn't need to touch it again until last week when I decided to play with my accel enrichments a bit in preparation for an autocross-- they don't matter as much for the street but I wanted to dial them in a bit before the race. (first event all year, too busy with DIYAutoTune.com so far)
I've downloaded and tuned from dozens of MS "it drives great" maps found on the internet. I have yet to find one that worked well in my opinion. One of the corolla AE86 maps out there is pretty decent but even it has been tweaked a little since the customer uploaded the map I developed.

When I say good driveability then the slightest little stumble is not acceptable. If you had to tweak your accel enrichments for autocross then I doubt "driveability" would have made me happy.

It had better start at all temps, idle and drive perfectly when the engine is -40 or +90. In reality this takes hours and hours of work. OEMs spend a million or more on this step. Most customers are not willing to spend the money required. For this reason reflashing the stock ECU is often a better plan unless a standalone will fill in missing functionality. I don't think MS fills that void yet.

I think the MS is a great tool for beginners to get their feet wet. I think it's a good solution for DIY people who want something to work for cheap. In years to come MS will probably mature into a very competitive product.

I will still maintain that MS is not for everyone. In fact it's not for most. It lacks many features and many parts of the hardware and software are centered around low cost DIY users.

Unfortunately I've had a number of partially complete unsuccessful MS installs come across my shop. The main point I want to bring out is if you have as much fun or more under your car as driving it then fine, if you want to understand what every sensor does as well as the how and why then get one, otherwise MS is probably not for you.

-Michael
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Old 06-06-2006, 09:48 PM   #25
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I agree on the whole driveability part....

Unfortunatly, I didnt get to spend the 100000+ hours on my RX to make it like factory.
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