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View Poll Results: Who has the BEST Subaru Tuner shop in the Country??
Godspeed 22 5.10%
TurboTrix 13 3.02%
Vishnu 33 7.66%
Kingpin 128 29.70%
Harmonmotive 17 3.94%
PDX 83 19.26%
Topspeed 41 9.51%
Gruppe-S 19 4.41%
TurboXS 54 12.53%
I-speed 21 4.87%
Voters: 431. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-27-2005, 02:27 PM   #101
mhaythor
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BigValley - you didn't get my point then. Best *tuner shop* has more to it than raw HP numbers. That's all I was saying. In my opinion, someone that gets you 500HP but lets you drive home on stock brakes isn't doing you a favor.

Again, the difference between 'tuner' and 'tuner shops'. There can be a separate poll that says 'who can generate the most HP' or 'who can get the best HP out of a so-and-so turbo, but I see total horsepower as an incomplete picture.

When I used to live in farm country, the good 'ol boys would go to the truck/tractor pulls and people would literally fight over 'Ford vs. Chevy' and which could pull hardest. The problem was that the Ford trucks had *very* few parts actually manufactured or engineered by the Ford Motor Co.

You can make any HP numbers you want ($$); that's just one part of the story
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:42 PM   #102
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This poll, albeit biased... does have its merits. It is simply showing who has the most positive feedback. (which hopefully is feedback from actual experience) In any case, it is a good start to help others choose a tuner.

Unlike the misleading testimony from 1 or 2 people about how great a tuner is... if you see 80+ votes for a tuner and one with hardly any, you'd have to think twice before going to that tuner with few votes. While you think this is generalizing entirely too much, I've heard a lot of unsatisfied horror stories from customers of certain tuners... and this poll supports that so far.

I think by starting another poll to include those who were missing, then do a playoff with the top from this and top from the other poll, then we can improve the accuracy of this poll and not leave anyone out.
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:52 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunot




i probably forgot some people, but i'll edit it later once i remember. and no i did not forget Shiv or ISpeed.
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:53 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhaythor
BigValley - you didn't get my point then. Best *tuner shop* has more to it than raw HP numbers. That's all I was saying. In my opinion, someone that gets you 500HP but lets you drive home on stock brakes isn't doing you a favor.

Again, the difference between 'tuner' and 'tuner shops'. There can be a separate poll that says 'who can generate the most HP' or 'who can get the best HP out of a so-and-so turbo, but I see total horsepower as an incomplete picture.

When I used to live in farm country, the good 'ol boys would go to the truck/tractor pulls and people would literally fight over 'Ford vs. Chevy' and which could pull hardest. The problem was that the Ford trucks had *very* few parts actually manufactured or engineered by the Ford Motor Co.

You can make any HP numbers you want ($$); that's just one part of the story
when you are pushing a car to the limit, you always are going to loose something, you can't have the best of the two worlds , you need to make a choice, driveability or power !!! for me i choose power, For example my car still have a/c ,p/s ,factory seats and i drive it all days, but that doesn't means that the car feels and drive like when it was stock, i'll be bull****ing you if i say so.

that's my 2 cents
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:54 PM   #105
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Element Tuning................period.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:09 PM   #106
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The whole “best tuner/shop” is a great idea but, not to down play the current results, a simple poll on-line will hardly communicate who the “best tuner/shop” really is. Honestly, there are just too many factors to take into consideration.
Sure there are easier on-line things to quantify like: What they tune, what power they make, which parts they sell, do they have a dyno in-house, do they rent someone else’s dyno etc.

But how do you capture and quantify stuff like: Does the shop fabricate their own work in-house or do they outsource the fabbing to another shop, do they engineer their products or just sell other people’s work and just re-badge it as their own, do they have legitimate racing/rallying experience or is street racing sufficient. Also, under what terms/conditions does “the best” apply to? Are they best at selling a product, best at marketing, best at customer service, best prices, best on-line presence… anyway I think we get the idea.

Again, this is not to downplay anything here. If you are trying to find out who is more popular on-line, then an on-line poll is probably best suited. But if you are really after who is the “best tuner/shop”, then I think something similar to a competition like the “Ultimate Subaru Street Car Challenge” we best be suited. Maybe we can kidnap a few Subaru shops folk, put their teams into a Subaru Junk Yard and tell them to build something and then race each other… kinda like Junk Yard Wars…man I love that show

Just random thoughts

Chris
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:16 PM   #107
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You know what Chris, your brilliant. This poll is useless. IT's just a popularity contest. “Ultimate Subaru Street Car Challenge” would really show more than this poll could ever accomplish. But, most of these tuners would be quite hesitant to compete.
-Brian
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:18 PM   #108
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Jup, it's like I said with the very first thread.

A noble objective endeavor destined to fail in a horrible wave of subjectivity.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:32 PM   #109
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Quote:
Ultimate Subaru Street Car Challenge

Thats actually perfect! I say we do one. It should be judged on 1/4,braking,show and shine,drivabliity,dyno,road course,skid pad,acceleration, and of course The almight gross display of horespower


So.. I believe it would be a great event.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:41 PM   #110
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I agree JJ but we need someone to host it. A neutral party. Maybe SCC since, they're acustomed to doing the USCC and it would have maximum exposure.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:42 PM   #111
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Are we talking just tuning to get big #'s or tuning where you can actually enjoy your tune for more than a few hours/days/weeks before it goes boom?

How about enjoying your new tune for 1 year or more. That would eliminate at least 5 of the 10

I would imagine that the real "best tuners" are the ones who work in developement for Subaru/STi.

Last edited by GReddy_Ready; 05-27-2005 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:43 PM   #112
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What about boundarant?
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:43 PM   #113
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Yea, That would be sweet event, maybe rent out PIR
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:58 PM   #114
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well, considering many of the "tuners" are enthusiasts with built cars of their own, I would hope they'd all be up for a "ultimate subaru challenge".

But that isn't necessarily the best comparison of how they treat their customers. i remember stories of how Hennessey ripped off their customers a while ago... and they have twin turbo vipers built reliable and fast and they do quite well in magazine competitions.

Would i like to see a shoot out? Yes! Would it be the final word on who is the best tuner? I don't think so. SCC did many subaru tuner cars and some of these companies aren't even thought of when you mention Subaru anymore.
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:18 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin@Kingpin
Thats actually perfect! I say we do one. It should be judged on 1/4,braking,show and shine,drivabliity,dyno,road course,skid pad,acceleration, and of course The almight gross display of horespower


So.. I believe it would be a great event.
It's a good start...that's for sure. Should we also include, not that I personally would like too, but price tag and gas mileage?
What other tests should we run? Perhaps the normal joe/jane would care to comment?

Here are some other thoughts I had:
We would need judges. At least one Subaru engineer, a magazine reps, a rally reps, a car show rep, who else?
Where would the event be? Or do two (East and West)
Also, if we were to do open track, which is a fantastic idea, who would drive? Do we pick one driver for all, hire a driver, or shop representative must drive?
Ackkkk so many questions…. Let’s here some comments!

Chris
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:20 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboiWRX
well, considering many of the "tuners" are enthusiasts with built cars of their own, I would hope they'd all be up for a "ultimate subaru challenge".

But that isn't necessarily the best comparison of how they treat their customers. i remember stories of how Hennessey ripped off their customers a while ago... and they have twin turbo vipers built reliable and fast and they do quite well in magazine competitions.

Would i like to see a shoot out? Yes! Would it be the final word on who is the best tuner? I don't think so. SCC did many subaru tuner cars and some of these companies aren't even thought of when you mention Subaru anymore.
I agree. Customer service is key to business. How could an event like this best capture the data?

Chris
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:25 PM   #117
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STREETS OF WILLOW SPRINGS (1.8-mile road course and skid pad) Rosamond, CA
Exclusive Rental Fees: Weekdays (year-round) are $2,000.00 per day or $1,200.00 per half day. Weekends (year-round) are $2,500.00 per day.
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:27 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboiWRX
This poll, albeit biased... does have its merits. It is simply showing who has the most positive feedback. (which hopefully is feedback from actual experience) In any case, it is a good start to help others choose a tuner.
Unlike the misleading testimony from 1 or 2 people about how great a tuner is... if you see 80+ votes for a tuner and one with hardly any, you'd have to think twice before going to that tuner with few votes. While you think this is generalizing entirely too much, I've heard a lot of unsatisfied horror stories from customers of certain tuners... and this poll supports that so far.
This poll most certainly is biased. Like others have said, if you spent $10k at a place you're probably gonna vote for them. Theres not many people who have spent $10k at multiple shops and can actually compare the service quality from personal experience.
A lot of the bias also comes from just reading threads in PPB. There are probably only 4 people on this board (the 2 vf39 wrx's, big valley, and the other 11 sec STi) that actually have experience with gadiel, but look at all the people asking how come gadiels not on there he's the man and they have no personal experience with his tuning.
And where you get your car tuned is highly location dependent anyway. This list/poll may help people in california, arizona, oregon, new jersey, maryland and georgia where those shops are located. But even if Topspeed wins, how many people are going to drive to georgia from california when gruppes, turboxs, vishnu, ispeed, harman (BTW u have it spelled wrong in the poll), and esx are all within a couple hours.
It seems pretty obvious that everyone who voted for a particular shop has either been tuned by that shop or bought parts from them and if you have done neither and are just going off of what you read on these forums you really have no place to vote.
And to have a shop thats been open for 5 months and has only been tuning the Ecutek for 3 months be 3rd in the poll just shows its worthlessness. Nothing against topspeed at all, but that just shouldnt happen. I dont care how badass you are, someone who has been tuning something for 3 months cant be compared with people who have been doing it for 3 years.
I think the main benefactors of this poll will be people living in california trying to decide between gruppes, turboxs, vishnu, ispeed, harman and esx. With all those choices its hard to justify an 8 hour trip to phoenix to visit Clark.

With all that said I vote for ESX. They did most of the work on my WRX and tuned my car (Ecutek) to 350 whp on 91 octane. And for those who dont know their dyno reads low stock WRX's were dynoing 135 whp back when i had my work done and a viper on a dyno day did 370 whp. And they helped me out at LACR and California Speedway many times without me even asking. A shop that can get 350 whp on california piss out of a WRX is good in my book.
I cant in good concious vote for anyone else on the list since i have no personal experience with them. I've heard that Clark (Kingpin) is the man and has gotten 500+whp stock block STi's but dont remember any track results off the top of my head, from TXS i can name dugefresh and mikaust who have both run low 11's, etc etc. I have heard many good things about each of the shops listed, but i have no personal experience with any of them.

I think the most badazz thing that could come out of this is a huge dyno weekend setup in california with all the tuners invited. Get together tune some cars and teach each other some tricks. The customers benefit from the tuning and the tuners benefit from the knowledge.
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:35 PM   #119
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I would love to see a tuner shoot out and would love to enter any of our cars. Not necessarily to see who is the best tuner but what else are we building these cars for but to race? We are enthusiasts and competitors. I would love to see road race, drag, dyno, show, ect.. all in one weekend. Would be a blast!!

M
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:47 PM   #120
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Instead of measuring your manhood on this forum, why don't you guys approach DSPORT or TPR for a magazine article and take say a stock wrx or STi. Or modded either way, as long as its the same mods and then just measure dyno and 1/4 times based on the actual tune alone. Ideally, have ten cars with the same exact setup and just tune it. Then this worthless thread can have a little more teeth, and all the folks that always like to talk trash about tuning ability can justify it or pack it up and go home...
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:48 PM   #121
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all of us in one place would make for some interesting footage on a camera.
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:51 PM   #122
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yeah i don't think that's a good idea.
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:07 PM   #123
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i'm not trying to argue, i'm just bored and this is a good topic.

Phatron:

those who live in nocal or socal only have to decide between those in their area... and if they consider driving to other half, they might as well consider going to Kingpin in AZ since the drive is nearly the same.

I haven't heard too much good from ESX, so I'm glad your experience was good. 350 whp is pretty damn good on that dyno. (although you must have a ton of stuff done) Glad your $10k was well spent... but that isnt always the case. This is my point.

Say shop A and B tune 100 cars each. Shop A gets 100 votes, Shop B only gets 10. But thats not the case as shop A may have tuned 1000 cars... then the test doesnt prove anything. However, if a shop has so many dissatisfied customers, it probably would have a bad reputation... so thats probably not a valid counter-point to the validity of a poll like this. So maybe this poll is good.

Chris:

I have no clue how a track day would aid in proving customer service, that is why I say this poll kind of reflects that IF all the voters had personal experience with the tuners. Problem is, that probably isnt the case. And this is the only factor to debunk this test... that and probably not all of your customers are on this forum.

I suppose a track day between all the tuners would be helpful to prospective customers... if they all had $50,000 (i dunno if thats even adequate for cars like Kingpin's or I-Speeds) ready to plop down for you to build them a car like yours. Maybe if you restricted everyone to a stock turbo shootout you'd have a better comparison on tuner ability... but then the other aspects play important factors as well. Then there is the octane issue... if turboXS comes out to play in CA, they would have to retune to that, etc. Too many factors in a shootout like this... is it fair to run C16 vs. 91?

Sorry I dont have many answers, only more questions... All i know is it'd be an interesting read on the can... or a good viewing on a boring night. Hit up SCC or whatever and make it happen!
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:20 PM   #124
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From the producers of Junkyard Wars:

We take 10 identical bone-stock STI's. Tuner crews draw a number to get their car. They get one week + $5K and get judged in each of those half-dozen or so categories. Each team decides how much to spend on bling vs. hp, on suspension vs. engine vs. braking etc. Fabricating parts from old junkers is OK. They decide whether to buy a new turbo or rebuild the existing; use whatever EM floats their boat. Buy coilovers or change gearing? No 'gratis' parts like they did in some of those TV shows (Team 'A' only has $10 left but look - free headers courtesy of...)

Odds of this actually happening are slim, but a scaled-down version would make for an interesting magazine article. Good place for shops to spend their PR budget too
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Old 05-27-2005, 06:22 PM   #125
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I think we should start another thread on this subject.. Since it is a new topic.
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