Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday December 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-30-2005, 10:16 PM   #1
mpower22
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 58352
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
04 20G STI(SOLD)
08 z51C6 (growing mullet)

Default why with ecutek do you need a fuel pump?

is their tune more aggressive than a copp ap stage 2? I'm going with a pro tuner tune soon for my fmic....should a throw in a wahlbro for good measure?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
mpower22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2005, 10:29 PM   #2
thesmokingman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17751
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I want to believe...
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
944 Turbo track

Default

Ecutek is not dependant upon a fuel pump. The power goals and equipment determines the need for a fuel pump. Adding an uprated fuel pump is always good when modding.
thesmokingman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 12:09 AM   #3
drfrink24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36369
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rochester, MN
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Java Black

Default

From what I've read here and elsewhere, upgrading the fuel pump while keeping the stock turbo has no benefits, assuming your stock fuel pump is in proper working order.

But, I do seem to see the upgraded fuel pump in many stage 2 setups, not sure why besides they are just getting something out of the way for the future...
drfrink24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:00 AM   #4
paperchasin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57117
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Vehicle:
2004 STi
WRB

Default

paperchasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:21 AM   #5
BoostdBoxer
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 53163
Join Date: Jan 2004
Default

You can't compare ACCESS Port stage 2 maps to anything ECUTEK has to offer. The thing with ecutek is that there is no shelf map that exist, shelf maps are garbage designed to mass produce income for the companies that create them. Anyways ECUTek is based upon the Fact that all engines are different like the human fingerprint and ECUtek is made so that you have to tune a map for a particular engine. Not a shelf map. Although it is possible to create a shelf map with ecutek the results are going to be major differences from different engines.
BoostdBoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:26 AM   #6
paperchasin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57117
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Vehicle:
2004 STi
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostdBoxer
You can't compare ACCESS Port stage 2 maps to anything ECUTEK has to offer. The thing with ecutek is that there is no shelf map that exist, shelf maps are garbage designed to mass produce income for the companies that create them. Anyways ECUTek is based upon the Fact that all engines are different like the human fingerprint and ECUtek is made so that you have to tune a map for a particular engine. Not a shelf map. Although it is possible to create a shelf map with ecutek the results are going to be major differences from different engines.
ok...so wut about a fuel pump??
paperchasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 03:26 AM   #7
nhluhr
John Wayne Toilet Paper
Moderator
 
Member#: 7327
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
2008 Mazdaspeed3
2006 Wrangler Sport

Default

The idea is that the stock turbo, with free flowing exhaust and minimal other mods, is capable of pushing the stock pump towards its flow limits. This will usually manifest itself as a small drop in fuel pressure which you, the end user, would see as higher and higher injector duty cycles as the comptuer trys to keep up the fuel as pressure drops.

With a higher flowing pump, the pressure should stay up and you now have more headroom for your injectors....

Do you need a bigger fuel pump for a TBE/EM setup? No. Is it a good idea to give you a little more room to play? Yes.
nhluhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 10:07 AM   #8
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

You need a fuel pump with ANY of the Em when you have a larger turbo and injectors.
Cobb is just retarded. There is just no other explaination why they would take a stance supporting taking a chance with the motor over a $90 part.

If you are on the stock turbo, thats a different story, and I have yet to see where any reputable tuner suggests a fuel pump on the stock turbo.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 10:11 AM   #9
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostdBoxer
You can't compare ACCESS Port stage 2 maps to anything ECUTEK has to offer. The thing with ecutek is that there is no shelf map that exist, shelf maps are garbage designed to mass produce income for the companies that create them. Anyways ECUTek is based upon the Fact that all engines are different like the human fingerprint and ECUtek is made so that you have to tune a map for a particular engine. Not a shelf map. Although it is possible to create a shelf map with ecutek the results are going to be major differences from different engines.
Please stop posting. Please. Really. Do some research, then come back and post away. WHen people post things that are this incredibly incorrect, it just spreads misinformation to the people that need good info.

NOTHING you said there is correct, not a single part of it.
There are TONS of VERY respected tuners that offer off the shelf maps on the ECUtek, JUST LIKE THE AP. The difference is that the ECUtek has a FAR better track record for problems than the AP.
Ever heard of Vishnu? I guess not.

I would love to hear your explaination of how the off the shelf AP maps are ANY different than the off the shelf ECUtek maps (other than the fact that there is a 75% chance that the car will run safer/stronger on the ECUtek mapping, if you go by the history of the two EM systems)

*edit* sorry for the flame, but when people post this kind of thing, it leads to 5 people reading, believing it, and re-posting the same bad info, which leads to 10 more doing the same, pretty soon, there is a huge group of people that totally believe something that is completely false, and then people start screwing their cars up. Its hard to keep good info out there readily available, all we ask is dont make it harder than it already it M'kay?

Last edited by Davenow; 05-31-2005 at 11:28 AM.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 11:16 AM   #10
drfrink24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36369
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rochester, MN
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Java Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostdBoxer
shelf maps are garbage designed to mass produce income for the companies that create them.

I don't think anyone will argue that a custom tune is going to extract more power compared to an "off the shelf" map. But, to say anything else is "garbage" makes some pretty massive assumptions. If they truly were garbage, then FHI would have some pretty terrible tolerances from engine to engine. In fact, they'd have to be so bad, that even FHI couldn't sell a car with "off the shelf" maps.
drfrink24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 11:22 AM   #11
drfrink24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36369
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rochester, MN
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Java Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhluhr
Do you need a bigger fuel pump for a TBE/EM setup? No. Is it a good idea to give you a little more room to play? Yes.
I could have sworn I've read at least one post where someone showed that their IDCs were unchanged after a fuel pump upgrade. I thought it also had more to do with a fuel pump upgrade in addition to FPR changes.
drfrink24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 11:30 AM   #12
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfrink24
I could have sworn I've read at least one post where someone showed that their IDCs were unchanged after a fuel pump upgrade. I thought it also had more to do with a fuel pump upgrade in addition to FPR changes.
That is correct, A fuel pump alone will do NOTHING for your IDC's. Add a RRFPR and it will. But just adding a pump will not.
However if you go to larger injectors, you will want the extra flow capacity to keep the rails full (note I didnt mention pressure, because the pump has nothing to do with that, unless you have larger injects and they are sucking the rails low...)
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 11:57 AM   #13
drfrink24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36369
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rochester, MN
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Java Black

Default

So, why are tuners adding (Gwinnett in this case) a fuel pump? Maybe the FPR changes are implied?
drfrink24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 12:33 PM   #14
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfrink24
So, why are tuners adding (Gwinnett in this case) a fuel pump? Maybe the FPR changes are implied?
No idea. Maybe to pad their wallets based on the fear of the uninformed? Because I can assure you, on stock fuel systems, the pump will do nothing.

I seriously doubt the RRFPR is implied. in fact I dont know of a single tuner that recommends them, This is kind of an underground mod of sorts, for lack of a better way to explain it. Basically because if you need more fuel, while a RRFPR can fix it, you should really, in an ideal world, do bigger injectors.

Post a link to what you are talking about in Gwinnets case, I want to see what level of mods they are recommending it to go with, before I make a real judgement call on them recommending it.
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 12:58 PM   #15
Jaxx
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 177
Join Date: Aug 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Boise,Idaho,USA
Vehicle:
The 93 Imp W/EJ20K
flat black

Default

an adjusteable fuel pressure regulator maybe but it is still not going to achieve the desired affect
Jaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 12:59 PM   #16
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
an adjusteable fuel pressure regulator maybe but it is still not going to achieve the desired affect
In my experience from talking to guys that have done it, you can get about 7-10% headroom with a RRFPR. In most cases, thats not enough (bigger turbo will need more than 10% more fuel)
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:05 PM   #17
paperchasin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 57117
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SoCal
Vehicle:
2004 STi
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
Post a link to what you are talking about in Gwinnets case, I want to see what level of mods they are recommending it to go with, before I make a real judgement call on them recommending it.
see my post...post #4
paperchasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:14 PM   #18
AaronWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 7194
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVa
Vehicle:
2011 997.2 Turbo
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
That is correct, A fuel pump alone will do NOTHING for your IDC's. Add a RRFPR and it will. But just adding a pump will not.
However if you go to larger injectors, you will want the extra flow capacity to keep the rails full (note I didnt mention pressure, because the pump has nothing to do with that, unless you have larger injects and they are sucking the rails low...)
Sounds like youre the one regurgitating here.

In this post you speak in absolutes. (which im sure isnt from personal experience)

Then later in the same thread you back down on making your "real judgement call" :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
Post a link to what you are talking about in Gwinnets case, I want to see what level of mods they are recommending it to go with, before I make a real judgement call on them recommending it.
I've done it. it works. and I did it based on the the fact that the recommendation came straight from ecuteks mouth who undoubtably has more experience with it then you do.

(I guess you think ecutek has stock in walbro too eh?)
AaronWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:15 PM   #19
jsalicru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 58031
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, TX
Default

You can get a LOT more than just 10% more headroom with a RRFPR... but seriously.. in this day/age of custom taylored ECUs and bigger injectors easily available.. RRFPR are quickly loosing the battle ground as it is a CRUDE way to tune.

I personally think a fuel pump might be worth it if you are reaching the upper limits of the current pump. Someone would have to produce some logs before and after to see if there really IS a difference.

About the post up there of Ecutek vs. Cobb AP. WOW, that was a full on, stereotypical, missinformed cause I believe everything I read post.

These two ECU options have TONS of similarities. Each has their pluses and their minuses.

You might think that AP off-the-shelf maps suck... and that most off the shelf maps suck. But think about this.... someone on this site is reading from BFE.. and they want more power from their Subi. The only method they can get what they want is using an off the shelf map.

Off the shelf maps work in most cases.. and Im sure that most AP users are happy... its just that it only takes 1 negative post for most of the community to find out of a complaint. Most people that have positive results dont post and therefore you dont hear about them. I've had my own issues with Cobb's maps... but I think their technology is great. I am still an AP user and dont plan to switch to Ecutek anytime soon.

Anyways... someone should log some data on this subject to see if there IS anything that can be said on this subject.

Worst case, I DO plan on going back to Harman to be tuned some more soon (my flash didn't have the 2nd cat CEL disabled) so I can slap a new fuel pump before I go and see if there is any difference.
jsalicru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:20 PM   #20
Subaru Gwinnett
Vendor
 
Member#: 23050
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: www.sogperformance.com
Default

Car comes in with a TBE, I datalog it, IDC's are 114-116% peak. (car had creep and was rich).

I throw my base Ecutek map in it, IDC's drop to 106-107%.

We throw the standard Walboro 255 in it, IDC's drop to 94-97%.

Exactly as nhluhr stated above: It has been consistently measured that with a TBE and more boost Fuel Pressure drops at high rpm. The bigger fuel pump keeps the fuel pressure from dropping, lowering peak IDC's.

This is not rocket science here guys, and to say that anybody is padding a wallet with the $5-$10 profit we make on a fuel pump is humerous.

I'm pretty sure that all tuners agree that the stock STi pump is pretty easy to overun... obviously so are the injectors. Putting a pump in is kind of a no-brainer when you are approaching the limits of it...

SS
Subaru Gwinnett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:41 PM   #21
jsalicru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 58031
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, TX
Default

nuff said I think.
jsalicru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 01:52 PM   #22
drfrink24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 36369
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rochester, MN
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Java Black

Default

I've posted this exact question before here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=pump

Seems we have 100% conflicting answers.

Although, you can't argue with observed results.

One last question, is there any tuning required, or is the simple flow rate of the pump responsible for lowering IDCs? I ask because I have AccessPort, so, I wouldn't be able to change any parameters.
drfrink24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2005, 11:41 PM   #23
nhluhr
John Wayne Toilet Paper
Moderator
 
Member#: 7327
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
2008 Mazdaspeed3
2006 Wrangler Sport

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subaru Gwinnett
I throw my base Ecutek map in it, IDC's drop to 106-107%.

We throw the standard Walboro 255 in it, IDC's drop to 94-97%.
Thanks, scott... i didn't think I was crazy
nhluhr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 05:16 PM   #24
RiftsWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6124
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Glendale Hts, IL, USA
Vehicle:
2000 NFR AP1 S2000
'07 Honda FIT sport (5MT)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subaru Gwinnett
Car comes in with a TBE, I datalog it, IDC's are 114-116% peak. (car had creep and was rich).

I throw my base Ecutek map in it, IDC's drop to 106-107%.

We throw the standard Walboro 255 in it, IDC's drop to 94-97%.

Exactly as nhluhr stated above: It has been consistently measured that with a TBE and more boost Fuel Pressure drops at high rpm. The bigger fuel pump keeps the fuel pressure from dropping, lowering peak IDC's.

This is not rocket science here guys, and to say that anybody is padding a wallet with the $5-$10 profit we make on a fuel pump is humerous.

I'm pretty sure that all tuners agree that the stock STi pump is pretty easy to overun... obviously so are the injectors. Putting a pump in is kind of a no-brainer when you are approaching the limits of it...

SS
Correct.

The pump (in the case of the STI, NOT a WRX) alleviates a flow issue at high RPM. A RRFPR and pump could offer SOME headroom on injectors, but frankly. Both are putting a band-aid over a bullet wound.

1: IMO you need larger injectors once you start pushing the flow limits of either a WRX or STI's stock turbo.

2: IMO you NEED a pump when you do said injectors

3: IMO I agree that a STI will benefit some from a pump, but not nearly enough to give me the type of head room I'm looking for.

4: IMO a RRFPR and pump is a viable (albiet ghetto) way of compensating for injectors (when you consider the cost of the regulator, etc).

5: IMO BoostedBoxer is a tool.

Cheers!

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
RiftsWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how do you test a fuel pump relay fyr3 Newbies & FAQs 2 04-04-2013 06:38 PM
Do i need a fuel pump yet? dsmkid95 Mid West Subaru Owners Club Forum -- MWSOC 10 03-19-2007 07:05 PM
how do you to that fuel pump? drewwrxrogers Water/Methanol Injection, Nitrous & Intercooler Cooling 18 12-01-2006 07:47 PM
Do I need a fuel pump on a Stage 2 car? Unabomber Engine Management & Tuning 15 04-14-2004 01:52 PM
Do i need a fuel pump with STI Injectors? GregUnd Texas Impreza Club Forum -- TXIC 14 09-25-2002 12:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.