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Old 06-26-2005, 12:33 PM   #1
Kraziken
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Default More brake upgrades after WRX & "H6" swap

On my BD, I've done the WRX front swap and the "H6" rear swap. I've got stainless steel lines all around. I've been using semi-metallic Cobb pads up front.

Somehow even after these upgrades, my wife's Lexus IS300 stock setup has better overall feel and power. I suspect it's the larger rotors but I'm not sure.

And this might be a question directed to Subysouth since he is the brake guru.

I've been looking to switching the 2pot fronts and go for 4 pots fronts. My concern is.

When I originally swapped my brakes I did the front first. (semi metallic pads, wrx rotors, stainless brake lines) I experienced ABS pulsing while emergency braking in the wet, and some front end brake dive. This went away with the H6 rear swap.

If I upgrade the fronts to more grip, will I be upsetting the balance again?

If I go four pot fronts, do I have to go 2 pot rear (which I read was Sti and very expensive).

Or do I go larger rotor front and rear? I originally didn't like this idea since I wanted to keep my 16" stock rims and use them for snow tires for the winter.

Neither sound like a cheap option, but just the 4 pot fronts are not too bad. I just don't want to waste my money if it will make it worse.
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Old 06-26-2005, 12:55 PM   #2
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For your existing setup, did you bleed the caliper as well? I mean, after you did the lines, did you have the brakes pumped up, foot off pedal, hose on bleeder, crack bleeder open, pull caliper to compress piston, close bleeder, repeat several times followed by doing the lines 1-2 times more?

I can't imagine you not liking the brakes with your upgrades.

I am still fairly stock and usually never want/need to upgrade brakes.

I use Valvoline fluid, Wagner premium semi metallic pads, SS lines, Brembo discs and a good bleed every year.

I can invoke the ABS in the dry with my P Zero Nero M&S 225/50-16's, so I have enough braking.
I also have some simple brake cooling ducts for "hard use".

Bigger brakes, for the street, for me sounds like lots of money, extra weight and possibly removes the option of cheaper 16" rims (like my 16 x 7" RS rims).
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Old 06-26-2005, 01:04 PM   #3
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Oh yes, I did all those things. I've had my upgrade for over a year or two now.

It was a pretty big improvement. Like anything else, I've grown accustomed to them.

Just looking to burn more money I guess. I've seen a few cars with the 4 pot front STI calipers. Scoobymods has a write up with them installed on a Forrester.

I'm just wondering if anyone in the Legacy crowd has them. 4 pot fronts and single pot rears just sounds off balance.
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Old 06-26-2005, 04:55 PM   #4
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from what I remember.. subaru 4pot front brake torque is similar to US WRX front setup or actually even less!

or my old upgraded setup was pretty balance (subar 4pot front; JDM H6-sized but vented 1 pot rear).
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:26 PM   #5
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I've got the 4pots up front, and the stock legacy brakes in the rear. If you want to know how it feels, you're more than welcome to drive my car.
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Old 06-26-2005, 09:05 PM   #6
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To improve feel you can try installing a new booster. I don't see it discussed as much anymore, and I've actually only seen this done on 2.5RS's, but it used to be pretty popular for guys to shift from the 2.5RS dual-stage booster to a single-stage booster (like from an Impreza L). I'd be willing to bet the same swap would bolt right up to our cars, but again I've never actually seen it done, so I could be wrong. Anyway, the theory is that the single-stage booster provides a more direct pedal feel than the dual-stage booster.

The other option to help tighten things up is the MRT master cylinder brace. I vaguely recall someone with a Legacy installing that, even though it's designed to be an Impreza part. Not sure on that one....

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Old 06-26-2005, 09:39 PM   #7
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Ken, without going to far into the details, the WRX front and "H6" rear on the BD is about a wash in reference to bias. Meaning you are about where your stock bias would have been. When you just had the WRX fronts and stock rears, as you found you had to much front bias because you had increased front brake torque output only and the stock condition is already overly front biased.

Thus far youve increased heat capacity [i] significantly[i] and increased response per fluid input, you havent however improved overall bias. If you go from WRX fronts to STi(non-Brembo) 4pot fronts you will be dropping front brake torque output about 10% using similar pad material and making better use of your fluid output. The 4pots will also increase feel and uptake.

It is IMO the best setup on the BD/BG without spending quite a bit more money.


Another alternative would be to run a higher coefficient pad in the rears versus the fronts. You wont get the additional advantages of the 4pots but you can improve bias by that method.

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Old 06-27-2005, 03:24 AM   #8
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Ken - (note: not going against SS' post, just a slightly different POV)

I run the 4 pot fronts (w/DBA5000 rotors + hi perf pads) and single slider rears (w/DBA650 + higher coef pads). I guess I am trying to say that you don't need to go to 2 pot rears. Of course, I have vented rear rotors, which deal with heat rather better than solids, but don't increase pad area over the H6 mod.

W/steel lines, good fluid etc, this car REALLY thows off speed brilliantly. Brake balance is very good, too. IMHO - if your wallet agrees, your next stop is rotors (even before 4 pots). 4 pots improve feel a bit, but pad surface area doesn't change a great deal. In my experience, real stopping power comes from the combo of pads AND rotors (well, add suspension to that too, but that is another book ). You don't need to go all the way to DBA5000s, even the 650s are much better than the OEM subaru rotors IMHO.

On the other hand, if budget is tight and feel is your only aim, a "brake booster stopper" is my suggestion - that will stop flex and give better feedback through the pedal.

All IMHO, and hope this helps.
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Old 06-27-2005, 03:44 AM   #9
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Thanks for the input.

I have some other needs before I possibly look into changing my current setup.

I noticed that Boxer4racing has the full brake setup from the 2005 Legacy GT. That may be an interesting option if I end up willing to let go of my stock 16" rims as winter tires. I planned on getting some 17" rims in the near future anyway.


Last edited by Kraziken; 06-27-2005 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 06-27-2005, 03:52 AM   #10
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Hey Ken, I'll be up in Seattle sometime tomorrow, so if you want to get together, I'll be more than happy to let you drive my car (Seating position is a little different due to 05 STI seats I now have...lol)


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Old 06-27-2005, 12:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherB4
Ken - (note: not going against SS' post, just a slightly different POV)

I run the 4 pot fronts (w/DBA5000 rotors + hi perf pads) and single slider rears (w/DBA650 + higher coef pads). I guess I am trying to say that you don't need to go to 2 pot rears. Of course, I have vented rear rotors, which deal with heat rather better than solids, but don't increase pad area over the H6 mod.

W/steel lines, good fluid etc, this car REALLY thows off speed brilliantly. Brake balance is very good, too. IMHO - if your wallet agrees, your next stop is rotors (even before 4 pots). 4 pots improve feel a bit, but pad surface area doesn't change a great deal. In my experience, real stopping power comes from the combo of pads AND rotors (well, add suspension to that too, but that is another book ). You don't need to go all the way to DBA5000s, even the 650s are much better than the OEM subaru rotors IMHO.

On the other hand, if budget is tight and feel is your only aim, a "brake booster stopper" is my suggestion - that will stop flex and give better feedback through the pedal.

All IMHO, and hope this helps.
Yep this is another option. Your fronts have about the same torque as your stock fronts and you adjusted bias with more aggressive pads at the rear.

And just for reference, the "H6", LegacyGT/B4/GT-B rears, and Sti(non-Brembo) 2pots all put out virtually identical brake torque assuming equal pads.

I ended up with the B4/GT-B rears and STi(non-Brembo) 4pot fronts. I have a set of the aluminum 2pots rears but I never installed them because of the difficulty and I was already running the same rear rotor with the B4/GT-B setup.

Just mix and match until you get a good bias and heat capacity combo. My only reservations about the larger Legacy GT fronts are the additional weight of those massive rotors. If youre tracking the car that might be good, but if you dont need that extra heat capacity, not adding the weight would be good.

ss
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx_driver_2002
Hey Ken, I'll be up in Seattle sometime tomorrow, so if you want to get together, I'll be more than happy to let you drive my car (Seating position is a little different due to 05 STI seats I now have...lol)


Mike
Thanks man!

I'll probably just take you up on that, when we get ready for the motor swap. I'd like to try out those seats too since I think they raise the seating position?

I have enough things I need to pick up before then to not worry about the brakes for a long while, but I like to plan ahead.
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Old 06-28-2005, 08:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subysouth
Yep this is another option. Your fronts have about the same torque as your stock fronts and you adjusted bias with more aggressive pads at the rear.

And just for reference, the "H6", LegacyGT/B4/GT-B rears, and Sti(non-Brembo) 2pots all put out virtually identical brake torque assuming equal pads.

I ended up with the B4/GT-B rears and STi(non-Brembo) 4pot fronts. I have a set of the aluminum 2pots rears but I never installed them because of the difficulty and I was already running the same rear rotor with the B4/GT-B setup.

Just mix and match until you get a good bias and heat capacity combo. My only reservations about the larger Legacy GT fronts are the additional weight of those massive rotors. If youre tracking the car that might be good, but if you dont need that extra heat capacity, not adding the weight would be good.

ss
SS,

Doh! I forgot totally that you ended up with almost the identical set up

After I'd run hi-end pads for a while on std rotors, I found that after switching to performance rotors from DBA (there are reasons I mention the maker, more on that further down) that stopping improved a lot! Pedal modulation was more consistent at all temperatures and full power braking went from good to great - like the middle pedal got an extra inch of travel (even though less effort was needed for stopping within a given distance).

The reason I mention DBA specifically is because I have run Brembo, AP Lockheed and Project Myu rotors, and DBA have earned my respect as the only ones that REALLY made a difference in my limited experience (and I am not talking about just the track).

HTH
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:06 PM   #14
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Digging up this old thread again.

I currently have some raybestos pads. I was in dire need of something local, and I went with Raybestos semi metallic, and some generic rotors from Napa.

For some reason they had some some different stock or performance rotors including slot drilled for the Impreza/Legacy (smaller rotors), but for WRX sized front rotors they only had one type.

I definately feel I've lost something in brake feel. It requires more pedal effort to do the same amount of work.

Maybe it's the rotor themselves and not the pads?

I'm going to have some serious HP soon, and I don't think my current setup will cut it. Even my wife complained after I switched out my Cobb pads and cryo treated rotors (they were too worn to turn).
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Old 08-31-2005, 12:44 AM   #15
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Well, I've never used Raybestos - but that is because I have been warned off them by rotor manufacturer people who test this stuff day-in-day-out.

I'd say it is a combo of both personally. OK pads (vs the good ones you had before) and "generic rotors" vs proven stuff.

I think you answered your question yourself m8 When it comes to braking, while some mods are patently worthless (even some of the brand name stuff), much of the stuff we've talked about is defo in the "proven to work" category IMHO. Sure it costs a bit more, but next to tyres, the need to lose speed is not somewhere to save pennies when your flesh and blood is on the line (again, IMHO).
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Old 08-31-2005, 01:27 AM   #16
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Someone indicated they were happy with the Raybestos (I think in the "Legacy brake pad thread", so I thought perhaps its the rotor.

I think I'll go with a pad switch front and rear, and see how that goes before buying another set of rotors.
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:07 AM   #17
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Responding to earlier posts, but I've run a number of different brake setups on my car, and haven't felt the need to swap out the rears yet (though I'll probably do a Legacy Turbo vented setup in the rear when I do the swap since I'm changing hubs anyways.)

I went from stock OB/GT/RS brakes to Axxis Ultimates on all 4 corners..the feel was much better, but was still lacking. I upsized to WRX rotors in the front, which gave me a little bit more heat capacity, then went to a set of Wilwood 4pots.........worst brakes I've felt in recent memory, at least for something that's supposed to be a race caliper. Even with stainless lines, ATE Super Blue, new pads, fresh bleed, etc, I had to punch my foot to the floor to get any real torque out of them, and the caliper body actually flexed visibly, making it worse. They stopped really well, and didn't fade, but were definitely not confidence-inspiring. I then went to a set of FHI 4-pots, on slotted rorotrs, which solved my feel problems, but otherwise weren't much different in terms of brake torque or bias than the Wilwoods, and were not significantly stronger than the WRX setup with good pads and slotted rotors.

Now I'm running Stoptech 328's, and I can honestly say that compared to any car I've ever driven besides a full-race Porsche, I've never been more happy with a set of brakes. They are 100% completely bombproof. Next to no fade, (and the small amount present is attributable to hard use on an old set of Ultimates, which aren't really that great once you start pushing them. I much prefer Hawk HPS's for feel and bite, and will be running those once I wear these down.) The feel is great, and the balance is spot on with my 1-pot slider rears with Ultimates. It's a testament to how little the rear brakes actually do that I'm on my 4th set of front pads, and the same set of rears after nearly 70,000 miles.

Again, just my experience. I drive an auto for the moment, so it's crazy hard on brakes. I know the Stoptechs seem expensive, but I've picked up 2 separate sets used for under 1k (first got a set of anodized black calipers, then went to the new powdercoat finish) and have had no issues with them whatsoever. Sure, I'm biased, but I honestly feel they're the best brakes for the money, and instead of spending 500 on 4pot calipers, 200+ on good rotors, stainless lines for ~100, new pads, assorted other parts, I'd consider stepping up to a BBK that, while it prevents running 16's, really does give you the best bang for your buck.


That said, now that the '06 WRX's are coming with red 4pot fronts and 2pot rears, getting used 4pots will be come much easier too, so keep your eyes on the classifieds. As long as you check over the calipers and rebuild them if necessary, there's a pretty low rish with used parts of this type.

Last edited by sybir; 08-31-2005 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:40 PM   #18
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Hey does anyone know what is needed exactly to convert to H6 rears? And where/who has what i need to do so... ive got the wrx's for the front and the lines too... just need the info and parts..
thanks
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:56 PM   #19
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www.subaruwrxparts.com

go in the impreza braking section.
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Old 09-01-2005, 03:40 PM   #20
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Last edited by flanders; 09-01-2005 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:43 PM   #21
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thanks iamrazor!
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Old 09-13-2005, 10:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrazor
www.subaruwrxparts.com

go in the impreza braking section.
razor the BD/BGs have the older style calipers which are incompatible with the "H6" caliper brackets so you have to also swap calipers, hardware and pads along with rotors and brackets to do the "H6" upgrade(see everything basically.) Thats why some of us have gone with the setup that is now on the new 05 Leg GTs.

ss
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Old 09-14-2005, 09:18 AM   #23
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subysouth "razor the BD/BGs have the older style calipers which are incompatible with the "H6" caliper brackets so you have to also swap calipers, hardware and pads along with rotors and brackets to do the "H6" upgrade(see everything basically.) Thats why some of us have gone with the setup that is now on the new 05 Leg GTs."

well i just bought a set of H6 rear calipers and brackets... what "hardware" do i need? thanks!
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Old 09-16-2005, 03:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98_soobie
well i just bought a set of H6 rear calipers and brackets... what "hardware" do i need? thanks!
98 soob, did you buy the calipers used as a loaded caliper unit?

If so you should have everything you need except rotors. The hardware I was referring to is basically pad shims and clips as they are diffferent from your stockers. If you can find a complete used caliper setup off a 00-04 Legacy/OB, everything except the rotors will be right there and will bolt right onto your oem backing plates(after trimming, bending or removing the thin perimeter dust shield.)

ss
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Old 09-16-2005, 04:14 PM   #25
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Subysouth-
yeah i got a whole complete set... i just unbolted the whole assemb. from the wreckage.. so i would think that i have everything.. thanks for the extra info!! I cant wait to feel and see the difference these make! thanks again!
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