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Old 07-05-2005, 06:38 PM   #1
wrxsubaru
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Default Help me pick a tire?

Right now i drive a 92 subaru SVX that i conevrted over to a manule, and plan on doing so suspension mods to before college ( springs, and rear sway bar). I work at les swab so i can get some tires pretty cheap, up to about 50% off on some modles. I plan on driving very agresivley, and doing some auto X within the life of the tire if not a couple of track days. Right now i have some proxy fz4s and I realy dont like them that much. They dont seem to have that much dry traction, or wet traction, wear is OK, but they breakaway well. Iam looking for a 245/45/16. I want a tire that has better dry traction, a stiffer side wall, and one with decent wear 300 or above. The tire dosent need to be the silent, (but it cant be crazy loud), or have to have the best rain traction but better rain traction would be nice. I would like to spend the least possible, but will spend more on better tires. I am looking at the nexen n3000s, I can pick those up for about $60 apice, but havent found any real reviews on that tire. Maybe the new proxy 4s but they seem pretty pricey for what they offer. Any sugestions?
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Old 07-05-2005, 06:43 PM   #2
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If you can sacrifice a little treadlife, Falken FK-451 should suit your needs nicely.
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Old 07-05-2005, 07:15 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagon Joe
If you can sacrifice a little treadlife, Falken FK-451 should suit your needs nicely.
The only problem is that discount tire, is the only company that sells falken azenas (sp) so i wouldent be able to get a discount on them. If there not a Falken azenia, then i may be bale to get a discount on them.
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Old 07-05-2005, 08:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsubaru
Right now i drive a 92 subaru SVX that i conevrted over to a manule, and plan on doing so suspension mods to before college ( springs, and rear sway bar). I work at les swab so i can get some tires pretty cheap, up to about 50% off on some modles. I plan on driving very agresivley, and doing some auto X within the life of the tire if not a couple of track days. Right now i have some proxy fz4s and I realy dont like them that much. They dont seem to have that much dry traction, or wet traction, wear is OK, but they breakaway well. Iam looking for a 245/45/16. I want a tire that has better dry traction, a stiffer side wall, and one with decent wear 300 or above. The tire dosent need to be the silent, (but it cant be crazy loud), or have to have the best rain traction but better rain traction would be nice. I would like to spend the least possible, but will spend more on better tires. I am looking at the nexen n3000s, I can pick those up for about $60 apice, but havent found any real reviews on that tire. Maybe the new proxy 4s but they seem pretty pricey for what they offer. Any sugestions?

....uuuummmm....yeah....get right on that one......

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....e1=yes&place=4


http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....e1=yes&place=1



http://www.edgeracing.com/tire/705/

http://www.edgeracing.com/tire/1520/




....those are some of the better choices in that size...


the t1-s is the only one that les schwab has that is worth a damn....

http://www.lesschwab.com/tires/performance/t1s.html
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Old 07-05-2005, 08:24 PM   #5
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Love my t1-s.



Have fun at College, I take it you're not an English major
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Old 07-06-2005, 03:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsubaru
...I want a tire that has ...a stiffer side wall, and one with decent wear 300 or above....
Even though the T1S is an awesome tire, T1S doesn't fit your two specs above. T1R is supposed to have a bit stiffer side wall, but I wouldn't think it has a high treadwear rating. However, I would see how much a set of T1Rs cost and maybe just get a set and see how long they last you.
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Old 07-06-2005, 09:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armand1
Even though the T1S is an awesome tire, T1S doesn't fit your two specs above. T1R is supposed to have a bit stiffer side wall, but I wouldn't think it has a high treadwear rating. However, I would see how much a set of T1Rs cost and maybe just get a set and see how long they last you.
Ah yes you are right...I thought the t1s were 300 treadwear but they are 280. Close enough
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Old 07-06-2005, 07:19 PM   #8
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Dunlop SP5000. Great treadwear and traction. I am planning on getting a second set for this car. They even perform in the snow. Good luck with college.
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:21 PM   #9
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.....any of you that are using treadwear numbers to sway you on tires is a fool.....100%

treadwear numbers are used by manufcturers to compare relative wear beteen tires that THEY make and are 100% NOT---say again---NOT in any real way comparible BETWEEN brands of tires........AND.....one companies 200 treadwear tire may last a lot longer than anothers 300 treadwear tire.....AND UHP/MAX performance tires that last longer than about 25k miles are wasted buy whoever is driving them like grandma anyway.....and most idiots don't have a clue that their alignment is what is killing their tires, NOT the treadwear rating.....and I could go on for hours, but won't because nobody wants to read past the first line and komprehenshen suks theze daz....
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Old 07-07-2005, 08:47 AM   #10
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Wow, I am always amazed at the kind of information folks post as "fact."

"The Uniform Tire Quality Grading Standards (UTQGS), Part 575.104 of the Consumer Information Regulations, set forth the grading conditions and procedures and labeling requirements that indicate the relative performances of passenger car tires concerning treadwear, traction, and temperature resistance.

Treadwear is the wear rate of a tire when tested under controlled conditions. The codes set forth in the UTQGS are two- or three- digit numbers representing a percentage of a standard value when a tire is tested in accordance with specified procedures. The higher the number, the better the treadwear."

These are standardized government tests that are not relative to each manufacturer's tires but between multiple brands. This is how the SCCA can mandate a UTQG rating of at least 140 for their Street Touring class.

I am NOT saying these test are what I look at when selecting a tire but they are a standardized test rather than a manufacture's relative rating of their particular line of tires.

Don't beleve me? Read up on the NHTSA requirements. I suggest you start here as it has a good executive summary of the UTQG system:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...te/807805.html
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Old 07-07-2005, 09:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoSTi
Wow, I am always amazed at the kind of information folks post as "fact."

"The Uniform Tire Quality Grading Standards (UTQGS), Part 575.104 of the Consumer Information Regulations, set forth the grading conditions and procedures and labeling requirements that indicate the relative performances of passenger car tires concerning treadwear, traction, and temperature resistance.

Treadwear is the wear rate of a tire when tested under controlled conditions. The codes set forth in the UTQGS are two- or three- digit numbers representing a percentage of a standard value when a tire is tested in accordance with specified procedures. The higher the number, the better the treadwear."

These are standardized government tests that are not relative to each manufacturer's tires but between multiple brands. This is how the SCCA can mandate a UTQG rating of at least 140 for their Street Touring class.

I am NOT saying these test are what I look at when selecting a tire but they are a standardized test rather than a manufacture's relative rating of their particular line of tires.

Don't beleve me? Read up on the NHTSA requirements. I suggest you start here as it has a good executive summary of the UTQG system:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...te/807805.html
Quote:
Wow, I am always amazed at the kind of information folks post as "fact."
....and I'm amazed that people think it hasn't been discussed, here, before.

This HAS been discussed before.....and the answer has remained the same....and my post is factual.

Using those numbers to compare different tire manufacturers is pissing in the wind.....using them to compare different tires from a particular manufacturer is not.

....and old max or uhp tires are usually heat cycled after a couple summers, anyway, and thus get hard as rocks----- so looking for long term usage out of them is REALLY silly.

DONE.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:30 PM   #12
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Inferno: Although you post is well written, and you posted good information, the absolute fact of the matter is exactly as Scotty says it is. I wish that TWR's were exact between manufacturers, but they're just not, tire technology just doesn't allow for such. However, I will say that they're closer today than they were 5 years ago.
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Old 07-07-2005, 05:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateLurker
Inferno: Although you post is well written, and you posted good information, the absolute fact of the matter is exactly as Scotty says it is. I wish that TWR's were exact between manufacturers, but they're just not, tire technology just doesn't allow for such. However, I will say that they're closer today than they were 5 years ago.


......d00d....http://www.discounttiredirect.com/di...67&rd=17&ar=45

Free shipping......and FORGET ABOUT the damned tire wear BS! ! ! ! ! ! and wake up.....it is a dream world that so many live in to make stupid things like wear numbers dictate their lives!!!!!!!
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:30 PM   #14
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Wow indeed. So all these years when I thought a standardize test that every brand has to follow and rate their results relative to a statistical value of 100 based on how much the tread actually wore during the testing procedures is actually a relative wear between the manufacturers own tires. I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but it seems at first blush hard to take internet bravado over scientific method. In the spirit of becoming educated, I will search a little more specifically as you have commented to learn what there is out there in the way of evidence. Any links would be welcomed.
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoSTi
Wow indeed. So all these years when I thought a standardize test that every brand has to follow and rate their results relative to a statistical value of 100 based on how much the tread actually wore during the testing procedures is actually a relative wear between the manufacturers own tires. I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but it seems at first blush hard to take internet bravado over scientific method. In the spirit of becoming educated, I will search a little more specifically as you have commented to learn what there is out there in the way of evidence. Any links would be welcomed.

....it is almost all theoretical......and the '100' is different for every manufacturer and the ONLY thing that can be used as any kind of a 'crutch' in making any tire decesion is a 200 treadwear tire from manufacturer 'X' will wear twice as long under(their) test conditions as one of their 100 treadwear tires.....and a 300 treadwear tire will last 3x as long as the 100 tire....but....testing is just that, and not real world.

I have ~17k miles on 200 treadwear Falken RT-215's and they are still 'legal'....and I drive NOT like grandma
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:16 AM   #16
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Here is the rub: who sets the control tire to give it a grade of 100?

If it is the manufacturer, then the following is absolutely true:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTaylor
It is also my understanding that there is no relationship between tread ware ratings of different manufacturers. You can only compare tread ware ratings between Bridgestones and not, for example, between a Bridgestone tire and a Goodyear tire. Maybe someone from Tire Rack can confirm that.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=treadwear

If, on the other hand, it is an independent association, as is implied on the NHTA web page, then it is false:

"A control tire is assigned a grade of 100. Other tires are compared to the control tire."
http://www.safercars.gov/Tires/pages...tTreadwear.htm

Here are the closest things I could find to objective sources in the last 30 minutes:

"This rating system was developed many years ago so consumers could compare the different qualities of various tires. A standard test tire was chosen and all passenger tires since have been judged against this standard. Tires today typically have treadwear ratings of 200 to 600 (the standard tire was 100), a traction rating of "A" or "B" (on a scale of AA, A, B, and C), and a temperature rating of "A", "B", or "C" to gauge a tire's resistance to heat buildup. Unfortunately, this rating system is now nearly useless as a comparative tool because the tire manufacturers perform the tests without much oversight from the government. The ratings can be useful to compare tires made by the same manufacturer, but is less useful when comparing a Goodyear to a Michelin."
http://www.suburbantire.com/tires/faq.htm


"The tread wear grade is a comparative rating based on the wear rate of the tire when tested under controlled conditions on a specified government test track. A tire graded 200 would wear twice as long on the government test track as one graded 100. Your actual tire mileage depends upon the conditions of their use and may vary due to driving habits, service practices, differences in road characteristics and climate. Note: Tread wear grades are valid only for comparisons within a manufacturer's product line .They are not valid for comparisons between manufacturers."
http://www.jetzontire.com/tiretips.asp

While neither references the basis for their statements, they clearly feel that it is so. As I understand the issue, then, in an ideal world where nobody tried to get an unfair advantage, there is an absolute measure that when properly implemented would give a direct comparison. However, it being the real world and oversight being what it is (or isn't, in this case), then we can only count on each manufacturer to provide tire to tire consistent testing.

The final question then becomes is the variance between manufacturers so dramatic that you can't compare a 140 to a 60 to a 280 because they could all be the exact same number or is the variance actually quite fine, where you can't compare a 140 to a 160 but anything around 280 is going to be similar vs. anything in the 60 range.

Hmm, I'm going to have to think about this for a while...my intuition may be wrong.

P.S. sorry to have h/j the thread...I hope I haven't pissed off too many folks!
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoSTi
...
"The tread wear grade is a comparative rating based on the wear rate of the tire when tested under controlled conditions on a specified government test track. ...
Here's your problem. This statement isn't really true. For one thing, it's not a "government test track," it's a specific route (100 miles or more IIRC) on *public roads* (I think in Texas). The conditions are not really "controlled". What they do is drive a convoy of something like 4-6 cars of the same make/model/year over these roads. One of the cars has the "control" tires, the others have test tires. Clearly, results will vary from day to day & season to season since weather conditions are different. Also, the road surface is different, both from car to car, since they don't drive *exactly* in line with each other, and over time as different stretches of the route are worn & repaved.
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:58 AM   #18
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Interesting. BTW, that was a quote, not my words (see reference page), but your point is understood. I am sure there are references out there that point to this information although it is not quickly found. Thanks for the background. And, as I said, sorry to have h/j the thread!
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:52 AM   #19
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....d00ds....like I posted above....way above.....this HAS been discussed, here, before and the answer is always the same.....wear on any UHP/MAX performance tire is gonna be almost entirely up to the driver and not some arbitrary number on the sidewall of the damned tire.....so forget the damned number and you will be a lot better off....really.
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:24 AM   #20
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Thanks Scotty, I will learn to just accept all that is said on this forum as the absolute truth without any backup. Seriously, I did my research, posted what I found, and apologized twice about taking this tread off topic. Don't be a tool just because this gets discussed again...
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Old 07-08-2005, 11:56 AM   #21
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....what I was REALLY suggesting was that a SEARCH of THIS forum would yeild ALL the answers.....but SOME people are too damned DENSE to figure THAT out, now.....right?????
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:07 PM   #22
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A search of this forum gets you "The Pirelli PZero Nero is GOD", and that's about it.
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