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Old 07-16-2012, 03:00 PM   #2576
jayoung
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smeerone View Post
How much is the zeitronix and tahoe FF sensor? Im looking to get a similar set up.
Zeitronix analyzer is $199 from their web site. GM sensor is whatever you can get it for from a salvage yard.

Edit: Price correction, sorry.
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Last edited by jayoung; 07-16-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:02 PM   #2577
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Originally Posted by 02RexWI View Post
Obviously we know about the advantages of E85, hence the reference to race fuel. No need to be a dousch.

jayoung: I'm in Neenah, we've probably seen each other at an Auto-x, I drive a SWP 07' STI. Used to drive a WRB 02' WRX.
I usually fill up on E85 when leaving Appleton for Shawano, but I have taken a 5 gal. gas can with me before to be safe.
I'm not running E85 on my STI, but my WRX was on it for a long time before I parted it out. It's hovering around $3.12/gal. currently, with premium around $3.65/gal.
That only puts E-85 at about 15% cheaper, and with a drop in mileage of about 25% you definitely aren't coming out ahead from a monetary perspective.

Heh, just so it's said, no. It's not because E85 is "cheaper". I want to run it because it's a safe(r) Hyperdrive Actuator.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:04 PM   #2578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02RexWI View Post
Obviously we know about the advantages of E85, hence the reference to race fuel. No need to be a dousch.

jayoung: I'm in Neenah, we've probably seen each other at an Auto-x, I drive a SWP 07' STI. Used to drive a WRB 02' WRX.
I usually fill up on E85 when leaving Appleton for Shawano, but I have taken a 5 gal. gas can with me before to be safe.
I'm not running E85 on my STI, but my WRX was on it for a long time before I parted it out. It's hovering around $3.12/gal. currently, with premium around $3.65/gal.
That only puts E-85 at about 15% cheaper, and with a drop in mileage of about 25% you definitely aren't coming out ahead from a monetary perspective.
You can do a lot better than a 25% drop in efficiency if you tune correctly for E85. Its much different than gas. If the tune simply compensates for the extra fuel and adds boost and timing then, yeah, the efficiency will suffer.

I've spent a lot of time tuning my car for better mileage. I can average 16 with mixed driving that includes a fair amount of harder driving. I can get around 18.5 - 19 mpg at 70 mph with all highway driving. On gas, I was around 17/18 mixed and 19/20 highway for comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smeerone View Post
How much is the zeitronix and tahoe FF sensor? Im looking to get a similar set up.
The ECA is $199 and the sensor will be whatever price you can get it for. Some places might know what it is and charge a lot and some may not. The place I went to required me to crawl into the tranny tunnel to pull it out and between feeling bad about that and not knowing what it was they only charged me $10 for it. Figure in another $20 - $30 for wiring, connectors, metal for a bracket, new hardware, push-on fuel line connectors, etc.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:08 PM   #2579
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Originally Posted by jayoung View Post
Looks good, what kind of plumbing modification did you need to get the 'hoe sensor in?
I just routed the return line from the FPR to the sensor input and then from the sensor output to the hard line that goes back to the tank. I got some GM push on fittings for the sensor connections. One is 3/8th and one if 5/16th. The 5/16th will be easy to push the stock fuel line onto and the 3/8th one is a tad bigger, but with some lube can get 5/16th fuel line onto it just fine.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:14 PM   #2580
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yikes! i always find it interesting how much avg mpg can vary for different people. in my FPRed 2.5L bugeye i am getting about 16cty/22hwy on e85, and on 93oct i get about 18cty/23hwy. as you can see, the mpg difference between 93oct vs. e85 for me was very small...city was just over 10%, but highway was less than a 5% drop. basically, e85 almost ALWAYS came out cheaper to run for me than 93oct did.


...lets be honest though...even if it was more expensive to run e85 i would still run it...damn stuff is WAY too fun to penny pinch over. i mean, i gained 120whp/80wtq on e85, and that boost in power made driving on 93oct almost dull.

Last edited by amalgrover; 07-16-2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:26 PM   #2581
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Jeez, why would GM put that in the tranny tunnel? WTF? I think I've seen a couple of wrecked 'hoes at my local yard. Hmmm.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:43 PM   #2582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayoung View Post
Jeez, why would GM put that in the tranny tunnel? WTF? I think I've seen a couple of wrecked 'hoes at my local yard. Hmmm.
Well its actually mounted off the frame rail, drivers side, right on the other side of the foot well. If the truck is sitting on a couple sets of old wheels like most salvage yards do, then you can just crawl under the side and get it. This Tahoe had the engine pulled already and it was sitting on its frame without wheels. The only way I could get to the sensor was to go through the engine bay, kneel in the tranny tunnel and unbolt it from there.
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:12 PM   #2583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
yikes! i always find it interesting how much avg mpg can vary for different people. in my FPRed 2.5L bugeye i am getting about 16cty/22hwy on e85, and on 93oct i get about 18cty/23hwy. as you can see, the mpg difference between 93oct vs. e85 for me was very small...city was just over 10%, but highway was less than a 5% drop. basically, e85 almost ALWAYS came out cheaper to run for me than 93oct did.


...lets be honest though...even if it was more expensive to run e85 i would still run it...damn stuff is WAY too fun to penny pinch over. i mean, i gained 120whp/80wtq on e85, and that boost in power made driving on 93oct almost dull.
I'm all ears, what else are you doing to improve fuel mileage?
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:31 PM   #2584
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Originally Posted by 02RexWI View Post
I'm all ears, what else are you doing to improve fuel mileage?
Optimize your timing, cruising AFRs, mid-load range AFRs, and tune the cruising area of AVCS (if you have it).

To be more specific, I setup my E85 tunes to cruise at around 16 to 1 AFR. I add closed loop fueling compensations to richen up the target with higher cruising loads as needed to maintain power. I'll increase cruise timing and adjust the timing curve so that timing isn't dropped so quickly in the mid load areas.

That accounts for most of the increase in fuel economy. The last bit which I've recently found to be more helpful than I had initially thought comes from taking advantage of being able to drive in higher gears at lower speeds or up steeper inclines. The properties of E85 or tuning with it allow for more power at lower rpms. For example, in a condition where I'm at a certain speed/load in 6th gear - I might normally bog down and need to use 5th. With E85, I can stay in 6th. I've found I can use a higher gear quite often where I normally wouldn't be able to on while using regular gasoline.
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:53 PM   #2585
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i don't know if its something specifically that i am doing vs. what someone else is doing. that would require some specific testing to see if that was the case, but i can tell you my tuning method and driving style...

-i am running high timing in my timing map (about 52*) in the low load/cruise regions

-i target 0psi or less boost in the light throttle/cruise areas

-i run as low a wgdc as possible in the light throttle/cruise areas

-i don't have avcs on my bugeye, but if i did, i would run as much advance as it would let me in this area as well

-i leave a cl/ol delay, but just reduce it significantly compared to the stock delay settings. this allows the car to still cross over to ol when needed, but keeps you in cl during most cruising and cruise control situations

-remember that GENERALLY the more vacuum you make, the better your mpg...so, when mpg is important (anytime acceleration isn't), try and keep your boost gauge in as much vacuum as possible

-shift as early as possible. this is going to require some experimenting with your personal vehicle, but basically to keep IDC's low and mpg high, you want to shift as early as possible without having the vehicle bog in the next gear. from my experience, i haven't found too many suby's that won't allow you to shift around 2250-2500rpm during light throttle situations.

-keep tire psi higher than normal for daily driving (i kept my hankook ventus v12's around 38psi...this also helped reduce the issue of their softer sidewall)

-i personally target 14.7-15.0 afr in cl, but to improve mileage, you could try and target ~15.5. i tried targeting this lean, and the throttle response was way too sluggish for my liking. honestly, the best throttle response was when i was targeting 14.0ish, but the mpg drop was pretty significant.

-avoid running AC whenever possible. i have seen the studies that say that windows down with AC off below 55mph and windows up with AC on above 55mph, but my personal experience in multiple vehicles has shown a fairly significant increase in mpg with windows down vs. AC on even with speeds as high as 80mph. **also remember, unless you were lucky enough to be able to do the windshield defrost mod (basically clipping a wire that makes it so you can run defrost without the AC running), anytime you run the defrost, you are running the AC. so...try and keep running that to a minimum.

...obviously, there are some other small things like tires, weight, keeping the car clean, etc., but you get the idea. i really don't know if my tune specifically makes a difference, but i always try and do everything i can to help it out.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:50 PM   #2586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Since its a so call free tune they are trying to sell you something that you don't need. 740cc will be enough at our elevation.

GL
thanks for the valuable insight!
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:01 AM   #2587
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Default AFR maping

Hey guys i'm have not any experience with E85, i read the Thread but i still don't get it how i map with E85?

I've got an Subaru with Ej20 TD05 20G SARD 800cc a walbro 255l a
greddy e-manage ultimate and a aem gauge wideband o2 uego controller.

And now the only one thing what i don't get is what AFR i have to run one my aem gauge, is it really the same AFR like gasoline or do i have to look on my datalog an map it on 9.73-9.8:1.

Thanks Thomas
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:54 AM   #2588
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Your AEM gauge is going to read in gasoline equivalent AFR, so whatever E85 AFR you want to run you'll have to convert to gasoline equivalent AFR.

Typically I shoot for around 11.7 to 12.0 AFR in boost.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:26 AM   #2589
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O2 sensors read lambda, not AFR. They convert lambda to AFR using whatever stoich you tell it when displaying the results. Most people just leave their gauge set to gas stoich (14.7), so that's what the gauge will use for the conversion.
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:33 AM   #2590
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So this mean i do just the same mapping like i did on gasolin a round 11.2-11.4 AFR ?just with E85 is this right? im still confused i mean is more e85 i need do i?

Can somebody explain this to me?
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:20 PM   #2591
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That's correct. The AFR in your tables and read by the gauge is gas AFR (AFR assuming a stoich of 14.7), which it's not. This means the AFR is wrong, but that's ok. When it's targetting and reading 14.7, it's actually 9.8, but you're the only one that knows that, the car is none the wiser. You simply adjust the injector scalar so the ECU injects approx 30% more fuel than it thinks it's injecting, and everything else works itself out naturally.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #2592
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So what you saying is the best AFR for E85 on 20psi?

ok thanks for that, i'm really happy about i to get so information from here

cheers Thomas
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:59 PM   #2593
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Originally Posted by Thomasoraines View Post
So what you saying is the best AFR for E85 on 20psi?

ok thanks for that, i'm really happy about i to get so information from here

cheers Thomas
Thomas, I mean this in the kindest possible way. I think there is a lot more to it than that. Don't tune with a 'hey y'all watch this!' approach.

Trying to save you frustration, money and a motor bud. Do it properly which means direct help, pay for tune, or reading.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:00 PM   #2594
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Hey guys, getting tuned on E85 next Monday, the 30th.

I'll post up some more info when I get home about parts I'm going with and such...

What kit are people using for wiring the fuel pump to the battery? I saw this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRF-50102/

Going to run the DW300 fuel pump with ID1000 with stock turbo vf48, intake, inlet, and Invidia catless Q300 TBE
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:11 PM   #2595
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What kit are people using for wiring the fuel pump to the battery? I saw this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRF-50102/
Never heard of anybody using a "kit". Most people just use some bulk wire and a simple automotive relay, should be able to do it for <$10.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:40 PM   #2596
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I've used that kit on a WRX, my STi and my Taurus SHO. I originally was just going to pick up wire and a relay, but this had everything already together.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:06 AM   #2597
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Originally Posted by jayoung View Post
Thomas, I mean this in the kindest possible way. I think there is a lot more to it than that. Don't tune with a 'hey y'all watch this!' approach.

Trying to save you frustration, money and a motor bud. Do it properly which means direct help, pay for tune, or reading.
Don't worry mate thats not my first time i Tune a car,is just i haven't no experience on E85, and here in Germany everbody what driving a Subaru and in my Subaru community realy nobody have any bloody experience, and all the Tuning Companys don't tell me everthink....

E85 ist just now comeing off Germany but not much guys do something with it......

Thanks Thomas
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:34 AM   #2598
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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Never heard of anybody using a "kit". Most people just use some bulk wire and a simple automotive relay, should be able to do it for <$10.
Is there a reason you can't use existing wiring? (Just curious)
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:34 AM   #2599
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Originally Posted by Thomasoraines View Post
Don't worry mate thats not my first time i Tune a car,is just i haven't no experience on E85, and here in Germany everbody what driving a Subaru and in my Subaru community realy nobody have any bloody experience, and all the Tuning Companys don't tell me everthink....

E85 ist just now comeing off Germany but not much guys do something with it......

Thanks Thomas
Ok, good.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #2600
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Default Stumble when going from VAC to Boost

So I have some things to sort out with the tuner but the E85 conversion is done.

In 1st and 2nd there is a pronounced "stumble" when going from vac to boost. What might that be and is it easy to iron out?
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