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Old 04-24-2006, 02:01 PM   #301
HamFist
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What are they testing in the government fleets to have all of these facilities closed to the public? There's a big difference in saying conspiracy vs. curiosity. I can sort of understand why they wouldn't open the government pumps to the public for liability's sake. How would fleet maintenance change, if at all? Aren't there garages used specifically to maintain government vehicles? I'd love to see some tear down reports, but I bet they're all locked up very tight.

(C/N: just musing again...possibly far fetched BS )
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Old 04-24-2006, 10:44 PM   #302
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They are not testing, they are trying to meet new federal regulations that require them to run alternate fuels.They now have hard requirements for how much fuel they must use in government fleets. Until recently they had to have FFV's in the fleets but only were required to use E85 if "it was available". In areas like Florida where there were no pump outlets they simply ran the FFV's on gasoline.

Larry
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Old 05-01-2006, 08:01 PM   #303
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*subscribe*
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Old 05-02-2006, 12:11 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist
I believe this is the first set of posts by guys from sweden. How are you doing with this fuel over there? Is it still in the "experimental" stage with people messing around with it?
Well @work I mostly drive FFV car and the companys policy is to only fill them up with E85.
I think we se more and more cars starting to use E85 in the begining ~10years back there was only Ford Tarus 3.0L cars, then Ford Focus, now there is also Volvo V50 and of course the Saab 9-5 Turbo

But there haven'nt been that much use of it in motorsports world yet, there is starting to be more comon to use it in Rally.

And there is allmost @ least one gasstation in each town that can supply E85.
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:56 PM   #305
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Has anyone subscribed to the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition news letter?
I can cut and paste the latest one if you want.
What it says is that the IRS just passed a 30% federal income tax credit, up to $30,000 per property, to install alternative fuel dispensing systems.

TMS
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:25 PM   #306
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Just about finished off my first tank ~25/75 mix of e85/gas. AP Stage 2 with p&p manifolds, no cats. So far so good, no cels or strange behavior. It does seem to pop more from the exhaust when changing gears and maybe just a slight bit more cold natured. Mpg's seem to have dropped, have not checked mileage yet, wanted to let the car learn for a while first. Will mix closer to 30/70 this Friday.

Question: Most of the e85 fact seems to deal with something other than the STI, with the larger injectors does it seem likely the STI would be happy with a higher mix than ~30%?
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Old 05-05-2006, 08:45 AM   #307
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What size are your injectors?
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Old 05-05-2006, 06:16 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist
What size are your injectors?
Stock, what size is that?
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:53 PM   #309
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Ok, so I just read this entire thread. wow, that took a day or two. lol

I have a 2002 WRX with gutted stock up-pipe, catless downpipe, hiflow cat, and greddy axle back, and intake snorkus removed. Using Cobb Stg 2 93 octane map.

So what I read makes me think I could run 30% E85 with no problems. Is that true? I also autox my car, in STX, so the performance gains would be great! How long do I need to let teh ECU learn the E85 before I should see some performance gains? I am a complete tunning n00b as well. But I will be getting protuned in the future, and if E85 becomes more widely available, I would like to get an E85 map if needed.

Thank you Hotrod for starting this awesome thread!
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:55 PM   #310
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565cc as far as I know. with your stage 2 and catless pipes you're not QUITE pushing those injectors but close. Don't go over 50/50. Probably where your at (25-30%) is good. If you want to run a full E85 tank, lower your boost by 1/3 of it's present (18psi down to 12psi approx) setting or install larger injectors. If you drop your boost for a full tank, play with the timing advance and fuel curves IF you can reprogram them.

(rant...not flaming anyone.) I think too many people try to go "full bore" too fast. If you back off the boost and play with the timing and fuel you're playing with the tuning in a safer zone. Sure, you're probably going slower. But, it's like putting training wheels back on by dropping to a lower boost level. The power potential is there for this fuel. However if you just want to experiment, tinker, and play with the fuel then back off the boost a little bit. Once you're comfy with how to retune the car, then edge the boost up and watch your duty cycles, wideband, and EGT's. Don't bee too anxious to cram extra air in.

Alcohol fuel has oxygen in it. With that in mind, it can be easier to lean out the car with too much boost. The fuel is very detonation resistant but not impervious to the phenomenon. Anything with stock injectors seems to be too small. I'm putting in larger 440 WRX injectors this weekend on my n/a RS. My stockers are 280. Read back a little bit and you'll see another gentleman with 800cc injectors who maxed them at 20psi on this stuff. That's how big of a difference larger injectors make with tuning it. You kind of have to "pour" it in . I picked up the wrong fuel rails from a buddy of mine so I fell behind a day or two. No biggy. I'm not worried. He's working with me on it and I'll have results up soon enough. I can't wait .
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Old 05-05-2006, 08:23 PM   #311
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Considering the blending octane rating is higher than either fuel, why go pure e85? Cooler intake charge? At what mix is the blending octane at it's highest?
It would be nice for me to be able to play with the tuning, but I'm afraid...
Wonder what injector size I will be looking for when/if I get my 20g?
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Old 05-05-2006, 08:27 PM   #312
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-Cheaper
-Isn't as polluting
-Needs to get put into the general public
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:06 AM   #313
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Quote:
Considering the blending octane rating is higher than either fuel, why go pure e85? Cooler intake charge? At what mix is the blending octane at it's highest?
Can't really give a good answer to the exact question asked but will mention that the 85% blend was chosen for a reason ---- it is the best mix for overall performance ( including cold starts) for typical cars, and the manufactures were able to come up with adaptive tunes that worked on both the 85% blend and straight gasoline.

On my first setup (mostly because my tune was not optimized I suspect) the car seemed to like a 50/50 mix of E85 and gasoline the best.

I can't reinforce Hamfists comments enough --- don't get in a hurry, learn how your car behaves on a safe tune --- ie lower boost then go for max performance. You will learn a lot about your car, and tuning without melting an engine.

Ethanol is great stuff, but it is not idiot proof. Its high octane will protect you to a point, but because of the higher cylinder pressures and total power output -- if you push it too far, and make it detonate, or go seriously lean you WILL break your engine .

Now I make this caution for two reasons, "One" I don't want you to end up buying new pistons when it can be easily avoided, and "Two" fuel ethanol is at a fragile point in its move toward acceptance. It is just now after almost 30 years gaining some general acceptance. (they first tried to get the public to accept ethanol enhanced fuels back in the late 1970's during the gas crisis)

If people get stupid and start blowing up engines, critics of ethanol will blame the fuel not the fool.

For a first time user, I started at a 10% blend and went up about 10% at a step until I got close to 25% (this is where tests run in Brazil found issues with some cars) then I slowed down and crept up a bit slower and found out where the car threw a CEL. Once I know that point (about 33%) I knew I had used up all the ECU's ability to protect me with fuel trims. I then pushed it up to about 50% very slowly, on an unmodified WRX, watching carefully for signs of lean out and other problems. I decided to quit while I was ahead at 50% without out getting in trouble, and it took me about 8 months of driving and watching the cars performance before I was really comfortable with the mixed fuels. I then dropped back to straight gasoline and quickly felt the drop in performance. That was when I knew I had a good thing going.

I just recently started doing the same thing with my 88GL wagon and it seems to like a 30%-50 blend just fine also, but it gets a bit cranky at the 50% level and takes a bit of driving (to warm it up) before it drives normally on the 50% blend.

Take your time and enjoy, I'm saving about $0.80 a gallon for every gallon of E85 I use, last time I bought some it was $1.99/ gal, and regular at the same pump was $2.79. By mixing I drop my fuel cost to about $2.40 /gal for a 90+ octane fuel.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 05-06-2006 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 05-06-2006, 03:55 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
Can't really give a good answer to the exact question asked but will mention that the 85% blend was chosen for a reason ---- it is the best mix for overall performance ( including cold starts) for typical cars, and the manufactures were able to come up with adaptive tunes that worked on both the 85% blend and straight gasoline.

On my first setup (mostly because my tune was not optimized I suspect) the car seemed to like a 50/50 mix of E85 and gasoline the best.

I can't reinforce Hamfists comments enough --- don't get in a hurry, learn how your car behaves on a safe tune --- ie lower boost then go for max performance. You will learn a lot about your car, and tuning without melting an engine.

Ethanol is great stuff, but it is not idiot proof. Its high octane will protect you to a point, but because of the higher cylinder pressures and total power output -- if you push it too far, and make it detonate, or go seriously lean you WILL break your engine .

Now I make this caution for two reasons, "One" I don't want you to end up buying new pistons when it can be easily avoided, and "Two" fuel ethanol is at a fragile point in its move toward acceptance. It is just now after almost 30 years gaining some general acceptance. (they first tried to get the public to accept ethanol enhanced fuels back in the late 1970's during the gas crisis)

If people get stupid and start blowing up engines, critics of ethanol will blame the fuel not the fool.

For a first time user, I started at a 10% blend and went up about 10% at a step until I got close to 25% (this is where tests run in Brazil found issues with some cars) then I slowed down and crept up a bit slower and found out where the car threw a CEL. Once I know that point (about 33%) I knew I had used up all the ECU's ability to protect me with fuel trims. I then pushed it up to about 50% very slowly, on an unmodified WRX, watching carefully for signs of lean out and other problems. I decided to quit while I was ahead at 50% without out getting in trouble, and it took me about 8 months of driving and watching the cars performance before I was really comfortable with the mixed fuels. I then dropped back to straight gasoline and quickly felt the drop in performance. That was when I knew I had a good thing going.

I just recently started doing the same thing with my 88GL wagon and it seems to like a 30%-50 blend just fine also, but it gets a bit cranky at the 50% level and takes a bit of driving (to warm it up) before it drives normally on the 50% blend.

Take your time and enjoy, I'm saving about $0.80 a gallon for every gallon of E85 I use, last time I bought some it was $1.99/ gal, and regular at the same pump was $2.79. By mixing I drop my fuel cost to about $2.40 /gal for a 90+ octane fuel.

Larry

Larry,
I just recently moved to Denver and was thinking about playing around with this e85. What stations have you seen it in the Denver area for $1.99/gal? Also, do they list the octane rating on the pump? I read e85 is suppose to be 105-115 octane, so how do you know which stations have the higher octane ratings. If tuned for it, this seems like a very economical way to make some very good power.
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Old 05-06-2006, 01:09 PM   #315
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It's advertised as 100 octane. But, I think "octane" is a word that's a bit overplayed. Basically, alcohol burns colder, slower, and longer than gasoline. that's how it makes more power.

There's no change in E85's power rating. The "E" prefix would be more of a guideline instead of octane. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more power it can make. But, you have to tune the engine accordingly to extract that power. "E" means ethanol, of course. The number afterwards determines the percentage of ethanol that was mixed with gas. E10 is technically everywhere in Denver. You get it at every pump. However, they still use the standard octane ratings you're used to ONLY to avoid confusion. The number after the "E" determines how much ethanol is mixed with the fuel. E85 is the standard marketing number you'll start to see more often. The more ethanol in a fuel, the more detonation resistant it is. It's an EXCELLENT fuel to push that detonation threshold farther. However, you still have to tune the mixture right, even if that threshold has been moved upwards.

C/N...an "octane" comparison with ethanol is like trying to convert english to metric. It's a pain in the patootey to compare and is kinda like apples-to-oranges.
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Old 05-06-2006, 04:08 PM   #316
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I think E10 is everywhere now. At my local Exxon station the supreme pump was broke and according to the owner it was because of the new E10 in all the gas. I asked what happened and he said "We just got the new ethanol gas and it broke the pump" I said "you got E85?" He had no idea what I was talking about. And told me all gas now has 10% ethanol in it.
Then said "Thank you come again" In an Indian accent of course
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Old 05-07-2006, 03:26 AM   #317
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Quote:
What stations have you seen it in the Denver area for $1.99/gal?
That is the posted price for E-85 at the station at 300 south Broadway last I bought some. He always has the best price in town but there are only a few stations in the whole Denver area that sell it.

This site posts a price watch for the Denver area.

http://www.coloradocorn.com/ethanol/prices.php

Quote:
I read e85 is suppose to be 105-115 octane, so how do you know which stations have the higher octane ratings.
The official octane for E-85 is between 100 and 105 depending on the source you get the number from. This is simply due to variablility on how far folks want to push the envelop. Most "official sources" will quote 100 octane, those of us who use it know from experience it is more probably closer to 105+ due to its behavior in the real world.

When talking about fuel octane and alcohol fuels you need to keep in mind that the octane rating system was designed with gasoline fueled engines in mind and is not really appropriate for alcohol fuels. The reason for that is, that the specifications for the testing standard for MON specify a very high intake air temperature.

You will likely never see this high of an intake air temp, in an alcohol fueled engine due to the cooling effects of the alcohol.

That means that the MON number reported for alcohol fuels (and to a lesser degree the RON number) are probably lower than they should be.

Most folks have to work at it to get this stuff to detonate. With NA engines they are running compression ratios between 11 and 14 to 1 on E-85. In a gasoline engine you would need high octane leaded fuel to do that on the street.

The 118 octane number is the "blending octane" of pure ethanol when added in small amounts to gasoline. As you go up to higher concentrations it drops down toward its natural octane which is reported to be RON 109, MON 90 which gives a R+M/2 antiknock index of 99.5 which gets rounded up to 100 for discussion purposes. Yet when you actually use it in a car, you need to run gasoline blends with over 105 octane to get the same knock resistance in the real world. This is called "road octane" and is the one that matters. E-85's road octane is probably between 105 and 110 depending on the particular engine setup you are running.


Larry

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Old 05-07-2006, 07:08 PM   #318
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bump....

...waiting on fuel rails
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:10 PM   #319
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Another update of new stations.

Code:
  Below is a list of fueling facilities that have installed E85 since issuance of our last NEVC newsletter, April 3, 2006.

The following 43 facilities are or will soon be carrying the clean burning, alternative  E85:

Star Energy
105 Garfield Avenue
Farnhamville, IA

Star Energy
2 North 27th Street
Ft. Dodge, IA

Star Energy
200 Main Street
Paton, IA

Star Energy
1207 Main Street
Roelyn, IA

Price Oil Company
302 5th Street
Durant, IA

K & H Cooperative Oil Company
815 North 5th Street
Clear Lake, IA

USCO #1
815 Derby Street
Pekin, IL

USCO #2
335 Cole Street
Bushnell, IL

USCO #3
Route 29 & South Pekin Road
Pekin, IL

USCO #4
201 East Fourth Street
Delavan, IL

USCO #7
509 South Fifth Avenue
Canton, IL

USCO #8
Route 91 and Birch Street
Dunlap, IL

USCO #6
801 South Second Street
Pekin, IL

USCO #9
900 North Fifth Street
Pekin, IL

Gibson City Fuel 24
Rt. 9 and 54
Gibson City, IL

Gallahan Irish Market
903 West Main Street
Peru, IN

Gallaham Oil Company, Inc.
2916 West 100 North
Peru, IN

Miller's Gas
421 South Detroit Street
Lagrange, IN

LaPorte Bellmart
550 East 2nd Street
Bremen, IN

Hamilton County Coop
16222 Allisonville Road
Noblesville, IN

Kranz Super Stop ( Holiday)
1185 Main Street
Sauk Centre, MN

StaMart
2470 Paul Bunyan Drive NW
Bemidji, MN

Super America
1015 Geneva Avenue N
Oakdale, MN

Petro-Card 24
1042 Industrial Drive
Perryville, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
1300 East State Road 72
Rolla, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
1004 Highway 32 East
Salem, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
1411 West Monroe
Mexico, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
1907 East McCarty
Jefferson City, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
1940 West Main
Jefferson City, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
3000 West Truman
Jefferson City, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
405 West 4th Street
Fulton, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
105 North Highway 63
Vienna, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
1302 South Main
Sikeston, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
2603 East Broadway
Sedalia, MO

Break Time Convenience Store
2701 South Limit
Sedalia, MO

Petro-Card 24
20 East North Main
Dexter, MO

Bill Smith Ford, Inc.
1010 Old US Highway 1 South
Southern Pines, NC

Richardton Cenex
3721 Highway 8 South
Richardton, ND

Hotspot
4708 West Charleston Boulevard
Las Vegas, NV

Miller's Gas
1444 Whitaker Way
Montpelier, OH

Highland Travel Plaza
2160 Highland Way (I-90 & Hwy. 37)
Mitchell, SD

Cenex Oil Company
2030 Lazelle Street
Sturgis, SD

The Store
1605 West McMillian
Marshfield, WI
TMS
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Old 05-08-2006, 05:16 PM   #320
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Dammit, I'm in the middle of one of the biggest cities, in what is known as a corn state, and I can't get E85 for ****.
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Old 05-08-2006, 05:21 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastResort
Dammit, I'm in the middle of one of the biggest cities, in what is known as a corn state, and I can't get E85 for ****.
yeh, id imagine Iowa would have been the state to figure it out.
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Old 05-08-2006, 10:15 PM   #322
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SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After some fanagling and playing with o-ring sizes, I got my 440 injectors and modded fuel rails installed. This is on a 2000 2.5RS @ 5200ft elevation.

It had roughly a 60/40 mix of gasoline and ethanol when I first did the switch. I was playing around that 33% threshold mentioned earlier for stock fuel system compatability. I noticed the car running very rich. It wasn't blowing black but it acted like it was loading up on fuel. Above 4500rpm in open loop it would stutter like hell. I could hold the throttle at 3/4 and it wouldn't do it. It felt sluggish, basically.

Sooooooo, I topped it off with 8 gallons of E85. that puts me around 70% E85 and the car is perfectly happy. I drove about 25 miles on it in a mix of interstate and stop and go. I could tell the car was still relearning, but it was much faster. The injectors sounds different. They aren't as busy as the stockers were. I'll drive it some more later in the week and see how it does. So far so good. My only concern is having the o-rings hold-up. I got the smaller ones I needed from Car Quest and I hope the rubber is up to snuff. We should find out rather quickly, though.

440 injectors on an n/a RS? It sounds too big, but that's what they need to be to run ethanol. On gas it was indeed too rich. However, I'm at a mile above sea level with 25% less air than ya'll down thar . Maybe at sea level it would actually work with gasoline. I don't really know. For know, with my car, up here...it runs good. We'll see how it goes with further testing.
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Old 05-09-2006, 08:57 PM   #323
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Wow....she likes it a lot. I'm hesitant to say if it's faster than before, but it runs like a stock vehicle. After some more miles, I'm surprised it's taken to it this well. I'm usually a little pessimistic by nature, but this is looking very good!
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Old 05-10-2006, 08:01 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
Another update of new stations.

[code] Below is a list of fueling facilities that have installed E85 since issuance of our last NEVC newsletter, April 3, 2006.

The following 43 facilities are or will soon be carrying the clean burning, alternative E85:


Petro-Card 24
20 East North Main
Dexter, MO
Kool. I only have to drive one mile now to get it. Three stations within 30 minutes and I really do live in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 05-11-2006, 09:04 AM   #325
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After tonight...I don't know about testing this thing on the street anymore. I just have to take it to the track now. Nothing bad happened. I didn't do anything stupid. It's just an observation....This car is starting to feel like it shouldn't be driven on the street. Even on the interstate, it's the first time I've driven it and hills almost didn't matter. With no lag, pretty intense torque, and a tweaked suspension...it's just a beast. It'll do almost anything you tell it. If I use more than 1/2 throttle around town it's almost too much. Cruising in 4th gear at 40-60mph, I barely tap the throttle to get it to cruise. Mash it and this deafening cacophony of rabid raucousness just fills the air. It has a defined exploding *ZIIIPP_PP_ZIIIIIPP_PP* racket to it like some kind of cup car.

I can't really state any claims about it's speed at all. What it can do now for some reason is completely obscene and shouldn't be printed. At all. Double the speed limit anywhere and you go to jail. The only place it won't do that in less than 4 seconds is the interstate. That takes about 6. Less going downhill. I'm almost embarrased to drive something this fast and friggin loud. Sure, there are cars faster. There always are. But this still shouldn't exist. Just no. I hate to say it, but I understand more fully why there are numerous scared parents concerning these cars.

It can't really launch hard over 3500rpm without the stock clutch slipping a bit. I'm embarassed to pass people in traffic. No matter what I do to behave in traffic it always sounds like it's racing and being mean. I only hear sounds like this on some kind of track. What the car is built to do seems really obvious now for some reason. I need to go to a track and prove it. The less this gets driven on the street, the better. Problem is, now it gets better mileage and it has a throttle like an on/off switch. A lighter, 12lb flywheel? Cams, compression, and headwork? They aren't even in yet. Even boost on top of how this engine sits now? The idea actually scares me. It feels like it's beyond crazy and all I did was swap injectors from it's previous setup and run the same E85. This keeps working out too well to be some coincidence.

It's just time to put it down now. The ride is insane enough. I still can't believe what that thing does, did, and is parked ready to do again. That can't be parked there. It's just not possible.
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