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Old 06-04-2007, 01:19 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by shoeboxrich View Post
Alcohol attacks several materials and literally eats them up. Copper is one of those materials and several components in the pump's motor are made from copper.

Most stills I've seen are made of copper. So why is it okay to use copper to create ethanol, but not pump ethanol?
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:35 PM   #1052
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Alright, I was wrong. sheesh.

Last edited by HamFist; 06-05-2007 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:56 PM   #1053
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I believe that there is enough information in this thread to almost completely debunk any fears of using E-85 in the EJ205 or the like.
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Old 06-05-2007, 10:56 AM   #1054
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As for the motor in the fuel pump, I ripped one apart just to see what it looked like. The electric motor inside the fuel pump itself stays dry. The impeller is attached to a shaft that is driven by the motor. No self respecting engineer would put an electrically charged motor into fuel itself whether it's gas, ethanol or cow ****. You can put it in a sealed container and submerge it in fuel and drive an impeller, though .
You better look again . Every Walbro intank and external EFI pump ever made is a "wet" design. It ueses the fuel to lubricate and cool the motor and all other components. It is also very safe because there is no oxygen present. It takes a mixture of fuel and oxygen to make a fire. I've seen pumps that have shorted out a literally melted submirged in gasoline. No fire.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:20 AM   #1055
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Damn. He's right.

http://mkiv.com/techarticles/fuel_pumps_test_2

from here:

http://www.forparts.com/fuel.htm

The upside is that when I cut apart my Walbro after it failed the motor still looked fine. I ran 80psi of fuel pressure through it and it failed but the windings looked fine.

Last edited by HamFist; 06-05-2007 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:56 AM   #1056
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This looks like a Bosch pump but pretty much all major OE pump manufacturers use the wet design.
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Old 06-05-2007, 12:00 PM   #1057
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Hamfist no worries! We are all here to share info...

Shoeboxrich - I am still curious about the fuel pumps in flex fuel vehicles. I am only pointing to you for this info so far since you apparently are so familiar with fuel pumps, and their designs. Also if copper is not suitable for use in the pump, what materials are going to be used instead to withstand the ethanol?
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Old 06-05-2007, 12:21 PM   #1058
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Thanks, dude.

Just a wild stab, but could the copper windings not corrode because it's grounded?
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Old 06-05-2007, 01:10 PM   #1059
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Guys,
The shunt wire on the brushes are stainless steel (instead of copper) and we use a carbone commutator instead of a copper commutator. Some areas we nickle plate the surface.
I can't believe you didn't believe me. I'm a trained professional Seriously though I've been in the fuel pump business since the late 70s and even though I'm a slow learner I've picked up a little knowledge. I'm into old hot rods and customs myself, but EFI stuff is my business so I want to know what's going on with E85 and if serious car guys (like the ones on this board) are going to be useing it.

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Old 06-05-2007, 01:48 PM   #1060
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Hey I never said that I didn't believe you, I am simply looking for information to back up a claim. Thank you for the information!
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:11 PM   #1061
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I missed the part where you worked with fuel pumps before I was born .

I think there's plenty of "serious car guys" willing to use E85. But between rampant misinformation and obscure bulletin boards with info, it may take a while before more of them are into it.The last few years have been impressive with the growth but it's still an uphill battle to see it go mainstream and big oil isn't helping. Since 70's muscle cars require a lot more work, that makes it even tougher for E85 in the old school muscle car department. I'll admit "tuning" my car for it was a no-brainer once I found the right parts combo. If I had to redo the car to run it, I'd probably reconsider it, too.

What kind of pumps for carburetors handle E85, since we're on the subject?
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Old 06-05-2007, 03:09 PM   #1062
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What kind of pumps for carburetors handle E85, since we're on the subject?
I am not aware of any E85 compatable low pressure pumps. I don't know if there is a market for them or not. I'm sure someone like Carter would look at doing one if they saw a demand.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:46 PM   #1063
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shoeboxrich

One of the major problems we have had is getting someone familiar with the fuel pump industry to dig up some good solid tech info for us, like what are the differences between the FFV fuel pumps and the conventional pumps.

So far the Walbro's have done fine but that does not mean that there are far better options out there if we had the tech info.

Any chance you could scare up some part numbers and flow specs for FFV pumps that have the same packaging as the walbro 255 l/hr and equal or better high pressure performance.

I did some digging through a fuel pump catalog and there are some nice high pressure designs like for some of the porche's that max out in the 160 -170 psi range --- bad news it that they have different packaging and cost nearly $200 each new.

If you could provide a list of over the counter pumps that meet the needs of folks that have similar in tank fuel pumps to the Subaru's it would be a great service and much appreciated.

We need to identify pumps that can feed 400 - 600 hp at .77 lb of fuel/ hp/hr


Larry
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Old 06-05-2007, 09:12 PM   #1064
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Good questions Larry. I have a few things to add, too.

shoebox-

Fuel line compatability scares n00bs. Napa fuel line I push incessantly because it's labelled multi-fuel compatible and I got the info straight from their own tech support line. The best I can tell is that it's neoprene. But, that's for EFI. What kind of carburetor fuel line might be available that can handle ethanol and isn't pricey braided stuff? EFI theories and tuning are becoming more workable, but carb setups do need some more love.

Try http://www.E85forum.com and http://www.E85vehicles.com. There's some carb guys over there that would really want to chat with you. Also try Wyoming Ethanol/Renova Energy and Slatten Engines. Don, Jamie, and the guys put a lot of hours into making an E85 carb based on a Holley.

Hope this helps.
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Old 06-06-2007, 12:18 PM   #1065
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Nearly all fuel line made since the 1980's is E85 compatible, if its sold at NAPA or most other auto supply stores its fine. I've been told there is some 'grey market' hose made over seas and sold thru discount stores (maybe Walmarts) that is questionable. If its made by Goodyear your good to go, its made of Nitrile.

There's plenty of lubricant and other chems. in E-85 to offset (negate) the decomposing and corrosion concerns some people have.

If a mechanical fuel pump has diaphrams made of Viton it's fine to run E85.

Calling fuel system manufacturers and asking if their products are E85 compatible will usually get you an uneducated answer of NO! Simply ask what materials are used in a particular product and determine its compatibility on your own.

E85 is actually 'easier' on fuel systems than most published info would lead you to believe.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:20 PM   #1066
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Originally Posted by Matador-IV View Post
Calling fuel system manufacturers and asking if their products are E85 compatible will usually get you an uneducated answer of NO! Simply ask what materials are used in a particular product and determine its compatibility on your own.

E85 is actually 'easier' on fuel systems than most published info would lead you to believe.
Dealing in generalities ("easier" on fuel systems) will get you nowhere. Any major OE manufacturer who has a history of testing and/or manufacturing with E85 knows exactly what materials are compatable and with ones aren't. We have built over 5,000,000 E85 and Brazilian alcohol pumps on three different countries so we know a little bit about it. What a company representative is going to say over the phone to someone they don't know is anybody's guess. We say our current 255 LPH pumps are not E85 compatible because we know they aren't. But that does not mean that they will fail immediately under all conditions. A car that is only driven (raced) on weekends for example may last a year or more because its the electrolysis while running is what eats up components the quickest. Its a slow death but still a death. A guy that uses some E85 and then a tank of gasoline may get a defferent life span. Its a crap shoot unless you use a pump DESIGNED for E85.
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Old 06-06-2007, 05:39 PM   #1067
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Originally Posted by shoeboxrich View Post
Dealing in generalities ("easier" on fuel systems) will get you nowhere. Any major OE manufacturer who has a history of testing and/or manufacturing with E85 knows exactly what materials are compatable and with ones aren't. We have built over 5,000,000 E85 and Brazilian alcohol pumps on three different countries so we know a little bit about it. What a company representative is going to say over the phone to someone they don't know is anybody's guess. We say our current 255 LPH pumps are not E85 compatible because we know they aren't. But that does not mean that they will fail immediately under all conditions. A car that is only driven (raced) on weekends for example may last a year or more because its the electrolysis while running is what eats up components the quickest. Its a slow death but still a death. A guy that uses some E85 and then a tank of gasoline may get a defferent life span. Its a crap shoot unless you use a pump DESIGNED for E85.
Had I been speaking directly to you and your comments I would have quoted you. Don't be so defensive! Also.... No where did I question you or the company you work for, in regards to the products you supply to the market.

Your comment, What a company representative is going to say over the phone to someone they don't know is anybody's guess. Which is the only contact many consumers have.....so thank you for agreeing with me.

Your comment, We have built over 5,000,000 E85 and Brazilian alcohol pumps on three different countries so we know a little bit about it.
Welcome to the "Tier 1 supplier club", I work in product development for a small coach builder here in Detroit.......GENERAL MOTORS. Yes, we know a little bit about it TOO!!
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:14 PM   #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
We need to identify pumps that can feed 400 - 600 hp at .77 lb of fuel/ hp/hr


Larry
Hey Larry...

If you are looking for fuel pumps, you might as well go to the people that make most of the high flow aftermarket pumps to begin with...

Essex is the parent company... They make lots of other stuff as well...

Essex Fuel Pump Division, Sx-Performance


Most of the pumps they make are rail mount, and you have to custom order high pressure pumps, or use a primer pump...

They can also tell you what the pumps output will be if a priming pump is used...

I have used these pumps in the past, and the will flow more than they quote at lower pressures... I never pushed those pumps past 30 psi, they were used on carbs...

It couldn't hurt to call them, they were always very helpfull when I called them in the past...

On another note, there are now 2 E85 pumps around here...
Hopefully they will put in more...
I know a lot of people that are very interested in doing conversions to all sorts of different vehicles...

Scott
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:16 PM   #1069
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Easy, gentlemen. Please? You're both the first one's from a major manufacturing company to step in here as far as I know. Anybody else that's been quiet about their profession in manufacturing, please speak up now, too!

What I've been pushing for is for people to use existing technology and parts because I knew they were there in international markets. Both of your experiences with global markets are going to be very important with the next steps we all take with this.

What I've been pushing from day one is that technologically, we're fine. There are existing parts available to use E85 that just don't get adequate press. We need more of those parts brought to market. What hasn't existed until the last few years in America is a market and infrastructure both for ethanol fuels. Whatever corporate meetings both of you sit in, please mention that. Bring your parts from other international markets that have ethanol to the U.S.!

It isn't the automotive manufacturers that are "to blame" for lack of E85 vehicles or parts or infrastructure. If we drop finger pointing all-together, what the market needs is better support from OEM suppliers and manufacturers. Build it and they will come. Chances are, you built it already and it's in a foreign warehouse. Car makers subcontract a lot of stuff. Companies like Bosch, Napa, and Denso probably have plans for ethanol markets and parts sitting on a shelf collecting dust. There are ethusiasts and commuter customers interested, as well as shops, and eventhe government. The last real major part to the puzzle is getting better support from manufacturers.

If I've seen anything from these intelligent enthusiasts that are doing their own work (with the help of what's written here) is that they really are doing fine with the physical labor part of things. Repair shops around the country are also figuring out for themselves just how easy the work is and they just need the right parts. For Subaru-Land, we at least have something that's workable, but not perfect yet. We've found plenty of avenues to accomplish the same results with everything from factory replacement parts, aftermarket computers, additional injectors, to lowered boost settings that allow the injectors to work easier. There's 43 pages here of a work in progress (at least on n00b page settings ). If anything, we can't figure out why Subaru hasn't chimed in at least to tell us to all shut up!!!!

Please:
-Bring in your existing parts to the American marketplace.
-Give factories the option of doing whatever work is needed to make FFV's out of existing cars. It will bring labor and parts sales into dealerships and repair shops.
-Be a little more flexible with what you make the automotive ECU's do.
-If you are in the mood to give away any money, I sure could use it .

I hope this helps.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:33 AM   #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shvrdavid
If you are looking for fuel pumps, you might as well go to the people that make most of the high flow aftermarket pumps to begin with
Thanks for the link but quite frankly I do not want or need a "high performance aftermarket fuel pump". SX only warranty's their products for 6 months from original purchase and Aeroquip warranty's theirs for 1 year. The high performance "racing" pumps do not live well in day to day driver installs from my experience.

We are simply looking for information on OEM equipment that is designed for continuous use in a daily driver application. The higher performing pumps like the Walbro GSS-342 and the Supra pumps provide all the fuel flow any rational person can use on the street. In a worse case situation you double them up or use primer pumps.


Quote:
Any major OE manufacturer who has a history of testing and/or manufacturing with E85 knows exactly what materials are compatable and which ones aren't. We have built over 5,000,000 E85 and Brazilian alcohol pumps on three different countries so we know a little bit about it. What a company representative is going to say over the phone to someone they don't know is anybody's guess. We say our current 255 LPH pumps are not E85 compatible because we know they aren't.
The question is why instead of simply saying they are not compatable don't your vendors or technical support people point folks at suitable applications "designed for E85"? If you have built over 5 million pumps I would assume someone in your company knows the model numbers for those pumps their rated output volume and pressure and the packaging style.

All you would have to do is publish a 3 page PDF document listing all the E85 compatible pumps and their key specs like flow and packaging style. No need for you to "recommend" any pump.
Just give us the info and let us make an informed choice.

I originally installed my Walbro GS-342 pump intending to run it until it died while I looked for E-85 compatible pumps. In looking through an Airtex catalog I quickly discovered that there are dozens of fuel pumps available most of which share a very small family of packaging styles.

I originally installed the Walbro GSS-342 at 24447 miles (Sept 2002) and currently have 61400 miles on the car (June 2007) that means it has run for almost 5 years and delivered problem free service for 37,000 miles in E85 and high E85 fuel blends with no sign of problems. It still delivers over 70 psi under high boost and shows no signs of 'failure'.

If the pump has a known problem with E85, please tell us how it fails and what to watch for as they age? If you already manufacture an E85 compatable pump that is in the same or essentially identical packaging for in tank install, like the OEM pump, we would love to know the model number and the make and models of cars that pump is intended for. Then instead of ordering a limited production "race pump" we could go down to the local auto parts store and pick up the proper pump any where in the country.

Most of us do not have the money or time to go buying pumps on spec and seeing what we get or digging through wrecked FFV's in the junk yard to find info that I have no doubt should be easily available to your support people.

The Airtex catalog has a wealth of cross over information in it including interchangability information between manufactures, I assume you have the same sort of tech info (flow rate l/hr or lbs/hr., design supply voltage, dead head pressure and volume at pressure and voltage charts).

As Gary mentioned the first manufacturer that starts to serve the needs of the community will get the business. If you already build a pump that is sold in Brazil and is interchangable with the OEM pumps in common cars like the Subaru's, Honda's etc. there is no reasonable reason to not make that info public.

If I want to buy a bearing I can go to an industrial supply outlet and get every possible tech spec of 40 bearings that are size interchangable with the one I have in hand. The industrial supply business long ago learned that good info is their friend as it helps the customer buy the right part the first time and adapt to non-standard applications and conditions. If a plant is having problems with high temp bearing failures all they need to do is look for interchangable bearings rated for higher operating temps.

That is all we are looking for, if the fuel pump sold over the counter for an xyz car is physically interchangable with the Subaru pump and is also rated for E85 then please let that information "leak out".

It is very frustrating to call for technical support and to simply be told -- no it is not compatible with no effort to move us to an appropriate component.
Especially when there are several folks that have upwards of 4 years of problem free use on these so called incompatible pumps.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 06-07-2007 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:17 AM   #1071
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You guys all make very valid points. I'm on this board to understand what your needs are. The Walbro high performance line of pumps came from the pumps we developed for our high performance applications (Viper, Corvette and Ford GT). We packaged these pumps to fit in as many popular domestic and import as we resonably could. We want to do the same thing with E85 pumps if the market is there and it looks like it is. When we have these pumps we will have a PDF file available so you all can determine what which one is best for you.
I'm still perplexted about the how long our current design is lasting. I'd sure like to have our engineers inspect one. [If anyone is willing to send me a running high mileage pump that has been run just in E85 in exchange for two new ones let me know.

Last edited by shoeboxrich; 06-07-2007 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:29 AM   #1072
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make a high pressure (150psi) alchy compatable pump for a reasonable price and people WILL buy them... not only as a primary fuel pump but also as a pump for anti-detonation injection.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:05 AM   #1073
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:53 PM   #1074
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Quote:
[If anyone is willing to send me a running high mileage pump that has been run just in E85 in exchange for two new ones let me know.
I would be happy to ship you mine. It has not been used exclusively in E85 but I have detailed fueling notes that show exactly what fuel was run for what milages. There are a few others that have also made conversions and they may have more continuous use of E85. I just tallied my E85 usage and it looks like over that 37,000 miles and 4.x years I have put 763.67 gallons of E85 in the fuel tank.

I have occasionally gone back to full 100% gasoline for the purpose of determing typical fuel milage and to proof test my FFV conversion setup.

PM me if you are interested in dissecting my pump.
If anyone else has a candidate pump please make it known so we can get the best data.

Larry
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:39 PM   #1075
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27K miles on mine, but I've got a Supra pump.
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