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Old 09-15-2005, 10:23 PM   #101
MrDestructo
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Cool. I'm figuring since I'm forced to run the 10% ethonal in the winter anyway, I might try some now to see if it helps the pinging. It can't hurt
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Old 09-16-2005, 12:53 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
Welcome to the "fuel ethanol lab rat society"
F.E.L.R.S.
pronounced "fellers".
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Old 09-16-2005, 02:49 AM   #103
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Quote:
F.E.L.R.S.
pronounced "fellers".

Hmmmm --- I like it !

As long as the "fellers" stick together we can figure this ethanol tuning stuff out.
Now all we need is a logo and a jacket

I hope to take delivery soon of a Delta Dash software pack ( its in the mail)
and with that I can do some detail logging of how my AFR's and fuel trims change as i add E85.

If anyone here in the Denver Metro area still has a nearly stock WRX and wants to play I can also get some logging on a near stock configuration ( sorry guys I'm just not willing to go back to stock just to log the stock ECU and injectors ).


Larry
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Old 09-16-2005, 11:42 AM   #104
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There's quite a few E85 stations here in Minnesota, so this type of alternative would be very workable for me. I've been considering running it even before coming across this thread.

Keep up the good work, we're all very interested in your results
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Old 09-16-2005, 05:56 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revision
F.E.L.R.S.
pronounced "fellers".
hahaha I read it and thought "feelers"...
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Old 09-16-2005, 10:05 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
That's very cool. I've seen EGR used to control detonation, and to reduce pumping losses, but never to replace a throttle.

Nifty!

-Adrian
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Old 09-17-2005, 11:56 AM   #107
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Default Additional info on studies running on Ethanol at 20 percent

I did some research and came across this info...A Subaru WRX was even one of their test vehicles

Since I can't post URLs yet (due to post limitations), copy and past this link in your browser if you are interested in additional info

deh.gov.au/atmosphere/ethanol/publications/biofuels-2004/pubs/phase2b-final-report.pdf

You need adobe acrobat to read

Conclusion is running E20 introduces greater wear for the engine but is still within acceptable limits. I'm wondering of the extent of wear for E85...
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Old 09-17-2005, 07:47 PM   #108
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Krees23 --

Good find, has some very interesting info in that report.
Looks like the minor differences between the gasoline and E20 tests are well within the normal range of variation in the test fleet, and they found no significant issues with fuel compatibility.

My guess is the engine deposit build up differences are probably due to engine oil used, as most combuston deposits are due to the ash formed by oil that gets into the combustion chamber, and in the case of the back side of the intake valve due to the lower operating temperatures of the ethanol fuels, not burning off deposits.

As you noted the Subaru did well in the tests. Although in fairness a test consisting of only 2 cars of each brand is hardely statistically significant, there are not any major warning flags there that I see.

Looks like for an emissions point of view, some attention needs to be paid to cat lightoff on cold start emissions (which is confirmed in some tests done by Univ. of Nebraska). The cooler exhaust gas temps for alcohol fuel slow down catalytic converter light off when the car is started cold. Some heat wrap or thermal coating of the down pipe etc could easily solve that issue.



Thanks for the contribution!

Larry
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Old 09-19-2005, 01:36 AM   #109
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Anyone read this stuff?
http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/pr/?postId=5110

If this stuff is true, then oil companies are not only creating marketing pressure to raise the coast of gas, but also blocking conversion to ethanol based fuels through political manuverings.
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Old 09-19-2005, 03:23 AM   #110
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Thanks for the info, but I would like to keep this thread focused on the technical/tuning issues with E85, the political/social/enviornmental issues would be much better discussed in some of the other threads, rather than a technical forum.

Larry
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:16 AM   #111
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Alright - here's my experence thus far. 258 Miles on about 7/8 of a tank and I'm off this week in TX so no playing around with the car.

Got my FPR set at about 55 psi (it was definitly running rich at 60psi). It took me awhile to get the relative pressure straight because my vac gauge was reading inHg and my FRP gauge in PSI... dumb. So not technically, i'm running a little lean, but fuel trims are keeping up. NO CELs at all yet, even the fuel system emisions I was expecting hasn't come yet.

Only issue has been some long cranks to get it started when the temp got below 50 at night.... you get this too Larry? I'm alittle worried for winter if this keeps up.

E85 is pretty expensive in Colorado Springs - it seems now I'm getting worst MPG than gas, but thats with running rich for 1/2 the tank.

I need to put the hotter plugs in next week and maybe that'll get me some more power. Now I'd say it's about the same.

-Bennett
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:45 AM   #112
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Quote:
I'm getting worst MPG than gas
You will get a small drop in mpg, but you should see an increase in miles/$

When it gets cold, you should add about 2 gallons of gasoline to the tank if you have hard start issues. That's what I did last winter and had no problems.

Larry
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:01 PM   #113
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How much a difference is the gas compared to the E85 where you guys are? Here in NC, using 87 octance at 2.80/gal and E85 at $2.60/gal (rounded up due to 9/10th). I really wish the price diff was a little more. Right now, I'm driving approximately 10.5 miles to get to the closest E85 station. Oh well, at least it's a *little* cheaper filling up on 50/50 mix rather than just straight gasoline and plus you get a higher octane.
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Old 09-24-2005, 05:37 PM   #114
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right now I can get high test for $2.79 but am really wondering e85 costs are about the country...being I don't have any
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Old 09-24-2005, 06:07 PM   #115
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Price varies radically from station to station as there is little local price competition.

A few months ago E85 was selling for $1.89/gal and Premium was selling for $2.07/gal.

Here's a local price compaison as of 9/21 between regular gasoline and E85 here in Colorado.
Code:
   Station -------- Location -------------------------------  E85 -  Reg.Unlead
    Cenex  555 Colfax Avenue, Bennett  ------------------------  $2.49  $2.79
    Acorn  1041 N. Colorado Avenue, Brush  --------------------  $3.09  $2.99
    Acorn Food Store  305 South 8th Street, Colorado Springs --  $3.03  $2.99
    Barns Conoco #11  295 South Broadway, Denver --------------  $2.39  $2.89
    Cenex Ampride  1607 2nd Avenue, Greeley -------------------  $2.70  $2.78
    Shell  12410 W. Alameda Parkway, Lakewood  ----------------  $2.49  $2.81
    Acorn Food Store  108 Baxter Road, Pueblo -----------------  $2.99  $2.89
    M & M Coop  600 East 8th Avenue, Yuma  --------------------  $2.55  $2.90
Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 09-26-2005 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 09-24-2005, 06:18 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
Price varies radically from station to station as there is little local price competition.

A few months ago E85 was selling for $1.89/gal and Premium was selling for $2.07/gal.

Here's a local price compaison as of 9/21 between regular gasoline and E85 here in Colorado.
Code:
   Station -------- Location ---------- E85 ------  Reg. Unlead
    Cenex  555 Colfax Avenue, Bennett  ------------------------  $2.49  $2.79
    Acorn  1041 N. Colorado Avenue, Brush  --------------------  $3.09  $2.99
    Acorn Food Store  305 South 8th Street, Colorado Springs --  $3.03  $2.99
    Barns Conoco #11  295 South Broadway, Denver --------------  $2.39  $2.89
    Cenex Ampride  1607 2nd Avenue, Greeley -------------------  $2.70  $2.78
    Shell  12410 W. Alameda Parkway, Lakewood  ----------------  $2.49  $2.81
    Acorn Food Store  108 Baxter Road, Pueblo -----------------  $2.99  $2.89
    M & M Coop  600 East 8th Avenue, Yuma  -------------------  $2.55  $2.90
Larry
Larry,

That's pretty inconsistent, huh! Seems like it isn't regulated too well and folks don't know how much they should be charging? For example, some station may see E85 as a big advantage. They start carrying it, just marginally less than regular gas pricing. When they look at it on paper it looks pretty good, their profits are two to three times higher than gasoline per gallon sold. That sucks. Correct me if I'm wrong. If they're getting this for $2.00 gallon and marking it to $2.60, that seems a bit exaggerated to me. 'Cause AFAIK, they can't do that with gasoline.
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Old 09-24-2005, 07:05 PM   #117
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wow, very inconsistent with the prices and the fact that some of them sell E85 for more than regular
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:59 AM   #118
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Ever considered that some gas stations may have a harder time storing E85 due to the type of tank and pump system they have? It may not be just price-gouging. Some stations may be taking a more conservative route and making more drastic changes to the pumps, tanks, and seals to make certain they can handle E85. Some may have seen this coming and made those changes before even carrying E85.

I couldn't tell you for sure, but I just wanted to play devil's advocate for a moment. Just look at the varying prices of parts and tuning services for Subarus; not all of the difference in price-gouging and we should all keep that in mind.

That said, I'm sure some of them are price-gouging and I hope they get what's comin'.

-Adrian

p.s. I wonder if you could get some kind of grant from the EPA for starting your own E85 gas-station and distributing conversion kits if it was non-profit. IIRC, you can still make a reasonable salary and be "non-profit". And I know our government gives out grants and/or tax breaks from time to time for anti-pollution stuff. Hmmm ...
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:08 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner
p.s. I wonder if you could get some kind of grant from the EPA for starting your own E85 gas-station and distributing conversion kits if it was non-profit. IIRC, you can still make a reasonable salary and be "non-profit". And I know our government gives out grants and/or tax breaks from time to time for anti-pollution stuff. Hmmm ...
we have actually started looking out that at my school, via the formula SAE team that I'm on....no on deals it locally and we want to run it...
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:26 AM   #120
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There are programs available for stations to add and E85 pump, so financial assistance is available for that. You'd have to touch base with the NEVC ( http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php ) and some of the other major groups pushing E85 to get that assistance.

Conversion "kits" are for all practical purposes illegal to make and sell commercially, due to the way EPA regs are written. There was a time when folks were doing conversion kits for natural gas/propane conversions and the emissions levels for some were higher after the conversion than before. EPA as a result put a halt to a simple conversion approval process. Now for a company to do that, they need to jump through the same sort of approval hoops as they do for CARB certification. Costs are several 10's of thousands of dollars. Nobody is going to do it until it is clear there is a very significant demand.

The other option is to stick to cars that are old enough that they are emissions exempt.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 09-26-2005 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:32 AM   #121
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I'm talking to more and more people who want to try to run 30% ethanol. But recently I spoke to someone who was still running regular oil because he was getting a deal from the dealership.

How important is converting over to synthetic or ethanol compatible oil before running even 30%?
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Old 09-26-2005, 09:44 AM   #122
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My personal opinion is the issue of ethanol compatible oils is not a big deal if the owner takes basic steps like strict adherence to oil change intervals and such. I've seen several comments on different web sites that folks are running normal oils with no problems. Only Chrysler continues to insist that a special oil be used. All the other manufactures have dropped that recommendation. Also according to those web sites, some large fleets that run FFV's are running regular oil with no problems but in fairness these are third hand reports at best so should be treated with caution.

All I can say with certaintly is I had absolutely no problems myself on any E85 blend from 30% to 100% using common synthetic oils like Mobil 1 and Redline.


I would only worry about it if the consumer only used the car for short trips and never got the oil up to temp to cook out any fuel absorbed in the oil. That sort of usage is hard on oils with gasoline for the same reason.

Larry
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:35 AM   #123
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2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.

i am re-reading this again, and wonder what this means? so if you figure your octane with 30 % e-85 and 70% 91 you figure the e-85 as 118 octane? so that figures to around 96 for this mixture?
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:30 AM   #124
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Quote:
i am re-reading this again, and wonder what this means? so if you figure your octane with 30 % e-85 and 70% 91 you figure the e-85 as 118 octane? so that figures to around 96 for this mixture?
Let me re-state that --- Fuel ethanol gives a disproptionatly high increase in fuel octane when small quantities of ethanol are added to gasoline.

Pure ethanol has an octane (R+M/2) of 99-103 octane depending on the source you get the data from. If you add small quantities of ethanol to gasoline it behaves as if it had an octane of about 118. Blending octane is the effective octane the fuel adds to the mix. Some fuels give more effective octane to the mixture than a simple addtion would imply.

In small quantities ethanol added to gasoline acts like its 118 octane --- this makes it a very effecient octane booster in 5% -10% blends.

The non-linear octane effect disappears when the majority of the fuel is ethanol like E85. Then the dominant effect is the octane of the ethanol fuel itself, which is only slightly over 100 octane.


If the blending octane held for high blends you would see E85 with an octane of about 110 -115 as below, which is not correct.
If you took 17 gallons of 118 (blending octane) and added them to 3 gallons of 85 octane gasoline you would get a mixture of (17*118) + (3*85 ) == (2006) + (255) = (2261)/20 = 113.

In fact when most of the fuel is ethanol, you get the true octane of the ethanol (102) and the gasoline ------

(17 * 103) + (3*85) = (1751)+(255)=1989/20 = 100.3


The blending octane only applys when it is mixed as a minor fraction of a large volume of gasoline. It just makes it a very cost effective octane booster when added in small amounts as required in the RFG standards for oxgenated fuels.


Sorry if I created some confusion there.

Larry
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:11 AM   #125
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Bump! Still running straight E85 here with no issues. My base fuel pressure is about 72psi. I picked a night time delivery job to put some more miles on the car. I don't drive to my day job. Cool nights with this stuff are a blast. I really have to watch it. Throttle never really has to go past 50% to get up and scoot. Good to see you're having nice results, Bennetsweb.

hehehehh...side note--I pimp-slapped a Dodge Hemi truck the other night . I love this stuff.
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