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Old 10-23-2007, 11:50 AM   #1301
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duplicate post.
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:17 PM   #1302
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in terms of heating ethanol discussed int his thread - I have an idea but it's not that elegant....

What about an aluminum fuel swirl pot, and then one of those rubber strip style oil heaters that guys use to heat dry sump reservoirs to keep their lube from cavitating?
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:21 AM   #1303
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Quote:
I am runnng -AN fittings, anodized aluminum is nearly as good as stainless steel.
what about cad plated fittings like the ones Eaton makes for hydraulic lines?
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:43 AM   #1304
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Quote:
In terms of heating ethanol discussed int his thread - I have an idea but it's not that elegant....

What about an aluminum fuel swirl pot, and then one of those rubber strip style oil heaters that guys use to heat dry sump reservoirs
That is the sort of thing some people are considering. The issue is to make it really trouble free, it should warm the fuel immediately and very close to the injector so on cold start mornings the fuel is hot when you crank. The logistics problem is that to get it close enough to the injectors on our engines you would basically need to be able to warm the fuel rails. Since we use a bypass fuel system as soon as you pressuize the fuel rails, most of the hot fuel would be sent out the by pass toward the fuel tank instead of being available at the rail.

Another option would be to take a 5th injector and place it so it sprays into the manifold plenum, then just before driver cranks the starter he pushed a button to inject a couple squirts of extra fuel into the plenum so it had time to evaporate for a second or so before the starter cranked.

The additional injector would not even need to be a normal fuel injector it could be a fine mist nozzle with a common fuel relay like is used on nitrous systems connected to the pressurized side of the fuel system. It would be a starting routine much like we did years ago with carburators where folks set a manual choke on very cold mornings to ease cold starting. Once you get used to the routine you don't even think about it.

On the old carburated systems with manual chokes you would plop down in the drivers seat reach down and pull the coke control out an inch or so, stick the key in the ignition and crank the engine, as soon as it fired and was running you would reach down and push the choke back in about half way, and drive off. A couple miles down the road you would push the choke full off.

As carburators became more sophisticated with automatic chokes, the routine changed but was even less complicated. You would plop yourself in the drivers seat, and set the choke by pushing the accelerator to the floor once or twice (different cars had different prefered routines). That would "set the choke" and then you would just start the car normally. As the engine warmed up the automatic choke would pull back by itself as the engine warmed up.

The old jetronic volkswagons (first really practical electonic fuel injection which came out in 1969) used a 5th injector that during cold start would add fuel. They would drive you nuts though as the car sat there to warm up as the engine would briefly rev over and over and over and over as the 5th injector fired. It sounded like someone was blipping the throttle over and over again.

Based on my cold start experience, you just need a brief period of very rich mixture for that first 1 -2 seconds the engine is cranking and starting. Once it gets up to normal idle rpm the issue goes away as the ECU adds enough fuel to keep it running.



On the cad plated fittings, I know they are not corrosion resistant enough to use on water methanol injection but would likely work okay on the E85 fuel. Only way to know would be to do some tests and watch them for signs of corrosion.

Larry
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Old 10-27-2007, 04:11 PM   #1305
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I know a popular, but more advanced ej mod is the tumble generator delete, which is supposed to be there just to improve emmissions at start up, what the last couple posts here made me wonder, is if the tgv would be useful, or the oppisite for this purpose (cold start on ethanol)
Thoughts?
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Old 10-27-2007, 05:35 PM   #1306
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During my last upgrade effort I removed the TGV's and went to larger injectors. My fuel milage took a hit it is much harder to get up near gasoline fuel milage than before. I am not sure which is the dominant issue, but I am considering putting the TGV's back in when I next get in there.

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Old 11-12-2007, 03:11 PM   #1307
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Well I just returned from a trip to Colorado Springs to have my car tuned at Revolutions Performance. I switched from the UTEC to an AP, and also wanted to be tuned for E-85 on the new EM. I have an interesting graph I wanted to share that shows the difference in power output on wastegate boost between 91 Octane and E-85.

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Old 11-12-2007, 03:29 PM   #1308
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Which is which?
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Old 11-12-2007, 03:53 PM   #1309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubeN'Siren View Post
Which is which?
Sorry, blue line is E-85 and red is 91 octane.
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Old 11-12-2007, 05:17 PM   #1310
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Quote:
what about cad plated fittings like the ones Eaton makes for hydraulic lines?
i researched this myself a bit more. Umm, not a good idea. Stay away from any cad plated steel in the fuel system if you can. Stainless or anodized aluminum is the way to go.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:02 PM   #1311
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Hmm. I need to verify some of these numbers. But, it looks like there's about 2500 non-FFV cars tuned around the U.S. now for E85. It's a generous mix of every kind of vehicle. There's about 75-100 around my area alone. Scoobs, Mitsus, Hondas, Chevy, Ford, and Dodges are popular. Not only is virtually every make and model showing some level of built in functionality, but there is a whole range of ethanol blends from 30% to 85% in regular use across all those ranges. To see the growth mushroom like that is impressive.

I don't know who reads what away from here concerning ethanol, but I thought this was interesting enough to share.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:32 PM   #1312
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It would certainly be nice to have a "census" of all the e85 conversions but the logistics are pretty much impossible given the nature of the beast. You can't even figure the number users based on a commonly used component like looking at sales figures for a certain brand of intake manifold or something similar. I personally feel your estimated numbers are probably low by a factor 3 -10, but that is just a gut feeling that for evey person that shows up on one of the specialty forums there are probably 4-5 who are not internet junkies or simply do not talk about their builds.

I am constantly running into folks that think that they are on to something new or think they are on the cutting edge yet have only been running the fuel for months vs some of us with years of experience. I know there are folks that were in it years before I was due to the availability of ethanol up at Bandimere drag strip for probably 2 years before I even tried it. I know the guys running the Wyo Ethanol dragster were messing around with it a long time before I took the plunge.

Larry
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Old 11-20-2007, 10:22 PM   #1313
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Well, Mac auto has tuned 50. Harvey's done another 50, and that's just around here. Adam at Revolutions has done at least 15-20 or more. DynotuneUSA supposedly has done 1200. That's what I want to verify. I know of no shop that does THAT much business through its doors.

I stuck with low numbers on purpose with that estimation. There is a disproportionate representation, but in a positive direction in that all folks who do this aren't on the internet. I almost feel like I waste time here now and that there's more work to do! I should have palates of single pour Oxytane before too long. We're all up to something . Everybody is running with it a different way.

Last edited by HamFist; 11-20-2007 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:36 PM   #1314
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To me the best measure is the no. of stations selling e85

When I started this, there were about 600 according to
http://www.e85refueling.com/
Now they have over 1300 and that's about 1 year later.

Also, the cost is going down. When I first started buying e85 it was $2.59/gal. Now it's $2.29/gal.

Reading the web also shows a lot more e85 info. When I started looking there was that one post from someone in europe that was posted in about 2 dozen forums. There's the e85 mustang site and a guy with a DSM and someone with a GM product running e85. Now there a lot more sites coming up. most forums talking about it, but there are others as well. Last year the posts were "I'm thinking about..." and this year it's dyno plots on e85.


Lastly is the support from manuf. I see e85 mentioned more on manuf. webpages than I did just a year ago. WB kits, EGT, tuning sites, etc. Also, some european HP car companies are now quoting horsepower numbers in Euro petrol, US Piss and e85, with the highest numbers always on e85.

Just found this link:
http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/FindPane.asp

Not only does it show e85 stations, but it shows PLANNED stations as well.

Last edited by StiLimited; 11-21-2007 at 02:55 PM. Reason: adding links
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Old 11-23-2007, 10:08 PM   #1315
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Man, this thread is 53 pages long! Some compiling of useful info should be done and some stickies created. I'm about to make the switch, and getting the info together is a SOB!
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:10 AM   #1316
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Quote:
Man, this thread is 53 pages long! Some compiling of useful info should be done and some stickies created.
That is why almost all the key info is condensed in the first couple posts.
The other stuff really needs to be viewed in context of the discussion in many cases so it would lose its value if pulled out to stand alone. I periodically scan through the thread and grab things of value and re-post them in the front few posts for new readers like yourself to get a quick over view but I strongly suggest folks take the time to dig through the thread.

Larry
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:23 PM   #1317
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........

Last edited by HamFist; 11-25-2007 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:52 PM   #1318
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this is the ethanol fuel additive you were talking about awhile back?
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:42 PM   #1319
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Yes. It's coming very soon.

Last edited by HamFist; 11-25-2007 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:32 AM   #1320
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Can you start a new thread in the tech forum discussing what it is, how it works, etc.. or point me to an existing thread.

thank you.

Last edited by StiLimited; 11-26-2007 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:37 AM   #1321
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I find it interesting to see that the 2 largest metropolitan areas New York City and Los Angeles have zero E85 fuel stations near them and a Philadelphia has one. Meanwhile Chicago and Detroit have a ton of them. You take the amount of drivers in Philly, NYC and New Jersey alone I bet you they add up to half the population of drivers in the US. Not to mention the amount of ungodly traffic you have in LA alone. Are the companies behind E85 really pushing this the right way or is this more of a push for the midwest region of the US to switch over to something else to make car manufacturers look better in the eyes of the public.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:49 AM   #1322
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It is mostly a logistic issue for shipping to california although they are starting to get some local production. The other thing that held back ethanol in California is a pollution issue that would have been triggered if you mixed gasolines that had MTBE in the blend with blends containing ethanol it would significantly increase some evaporative emissions and photo chemical smog. Once MTBE was banned that road block went away.

In some cases local laws need to be changed before E85 can be brought in. This was the case in Florida until recently it was illegal to sell E85 to the public in Florida.

Larry
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:45 AM   #1323
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A funny one is Phoenix Arizona vs. Tucson Arizona.

Phoenix is the capital and about 4x the population of Tucson. But Phoenix has 1 station (non public, gov. use only). Tucson has 5 e85 stations, all open to the public.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:55 PM   #1324
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Who will tune for E85?
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:06 PM   #1325
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Quote:
Who will tune for E85?
Any capable dyno tuner should be able to do the tune. You need to call around your local area and see what is available. Also check your local regional forum.

If the tuner has never tuned with E85 before it would be good for him to do some homework on the topic. The cliff notes version is you will need about 30% more fuel flow across the board as a starting point. No changes to ignition timing as a starting point, and build the map as if the car was being tuned for 104 octane race gas for a full out high performance tune. There are some tweaks that go beyond that but that will get the tuner in the ball park so that he can use his normal tuning process to see what the car needs for fine tuning. There are several people here and on the opensource boards that have tuned on E85 and would be glad to help if they tuner you decide to use wants to talk to someone who has already done it.

There are also some specialty E85 web forums people can go to for tuning questions.
These are two specialty E85 forums I have experience with. The first one includes an forum where tuners that have experience with E85.

http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php
http://e85forum.net/ (updated link)

Larry

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