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Old 07-09-2005, 03:34 PM   #1
lordzappo
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Default high performance all season vs UHP summer

Please discuss the following issues for my learning benefit.


1. A good High performance all season tire(HPAS) will hang with a significant amount of the Ultra High Performance Summer(UHP) tires on the market.

True or false?


2. The UHP tire scene is a newly developed fad to support the explosion of the boy racing scene with the advent of the fast and the furious, and UHP tires do not in fact offer a significant (let's say, 10%) advantage over the best HPAS tires.

True or false?

3. Which HPAS tires, if any, will offer comparable levels of grip to the stock 070's on the STi.
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Old 07-09-2005, 04:35 PM   #2
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All seasons, high performance or not, will NEVER perform anywhere near the limits of proper summer tires. You may get decent or even good performance out of all seasons, but NEVER will they "hang" with ultra high performance summers.

Unless of course you don't drive hard enough to warrant the extra performance, in which case sure...whatever floats your boat.

And from what I've heard, the potenzas on the STi are one of the best tires out there stock, so I doubt there are any all seasons that will even come close to them.
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Old 07-09-2005, 04:54 PM   #3
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see i would tend to disagree with you because comparing articles on tire rack between some of the middle range UHP and the best HPAS's, all the numbers (g-force wet/dry, braking 50-0 wet/dry) are comparable. Slalom has differences of about ~.6 seconds in favor of the UHP. However, wet g-force for the A/S's was actually higher than the UHP's.

When you get into the super expensive summer tires(bridgestone, eagle F1, the 'max performance' tires on tire rack's reviews page), this difference increases a little more.


So where are you coming from with your statement:

are you really going to notice ~.6 seconds anywhere but on the track?

Comparable numbers in everything but slalom and lap time (which i would think indicate less steering response) and a wear rating of more than double at no additional cost seems to indicate that additional performance benefits of your average UHP tire are minimal at best.

When i was first asked the question i asked you i scoffed at it too. But looking into it, what really are the differences?

Hence my second question concerning supporting a young, overenthusiastic market that just assumes these tires must be better because they are summer only, with goofy tread designs.

link to two articles used for comparisons(i'm just comparing the spread of the tires rated in both articles, I'm not interested in any particular tire from either of these reviews).

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/fuzion_zri_c.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...lus_charts.jsp

As I stated, the MAX performance tires(so named by tire rack) do perform noticeably better.

My position is a good HPAS tire is going to be as good or better than a good amount of the UHP market.

Last edited by lordzappo; 07-09-2005 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 07-09-2005, 04:58 PM   #4
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I feel like this might need an excel sheet to show this clearly. I'll work on it.
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Old 07-09-2005, 09:18 PM   #5
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Old 07-09-2005, 09:48 PM   #6
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1) Forget it....all of it.

2) Forget it....all of it.

3)NEVER EVER gonna happen.

REALLY.



.....there is NO AS tire that will even close to hang with an re070 in dry conditions.


.....and many 'UHP' tires are junk anyway....and are NOT even close to MAX performance tires
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Old 07-09-2005, 10:23 PM   #7
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what an informative post that was.

I've seen people shout how much better summer tires are on other forums but where's the data? One key point on some other forums i was reading was summer tires are clearly better in the rain than all seasons. Well this data i just got off tire rack seems to directly contradict that. What gives here.

My gut feeling says summer tires should be much better, but i don't find any hard evidence that they are more than 5-10% better. Is 5-10% worth paying for another set of rims and winter tires, plus having summer tires that wear out twice as fast.

Last edited by lordzappo; 07-09-2005 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 07-09-2005, 10:51 PM   #8
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....trying to put hard, fast, exact numbers on tires is pissing in the wind.....mental masturbation

Don't try to get too cerebral and you will do MUCH better.

If you NEED an AS tire, buy one......if you WANT a MAX performance summer tire buy one......don't try to confuse the two....'cuz that's just foolish.....and trying to compare 'numbers' on them is....well....just....


And trying to read too much into Tire Rack's data is not gonna work either.

Why do you think differnt classes of tires are not cross-compared????

Because it would be foolish to try to do so.


End the mental masturbation......be
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Old 07-09-2005, 11:06 PM   #9
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unfortunately tirerack's data arent comparing apples to apples when it comes down to AS and summer.

say when they rate a 9 in dry category with all-seasons, they are only comparing with other all-seasons and not summers. the ratings arent across the whole board.

if your style of driving doesnt require maximization of your tire's potential, then all-seasons is prob the smarter choice. you'll have longer treadwear and acceptable inclement weather performance. but just dont come back and complain that your tire doesnt kick butt in the snow or can take a corner at high speeds. you get what you pay for.
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Old 07-09-2005, 11:18 PM   #10
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I'm basing my views on the fact that I've driven on Toyo Proxes FZ4's, which are supposed to be high performance all seasons, and also on Falken ST115s and the new Toyo T1Rs.

Both the Falken and the T1Rs would kill the FZ4s, in dry and in the wet. I'm basing it on first hand experience.

Like someone else said, if you don't need full blown performance summer tires and don't want to bother with changing to another set of wheels/tires for the fall/winter, then stick with all seasons, otherwise, go with two sets of wheels/tires.
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Old 07-10-2005, 01:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by express_wagon
unfortunately tirerack's data arent comparing apples to apples when it comes down to AS and summer.
not comparing those ratings. comparing dry braking, skid pad, etc.
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Old 07-10-2005, 01:51 AM   #12
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nothing anyone has said has convinced me of anything so far, except for Keiho with direct experience.

To just flat out reject a comparison between the two is ridiculous IMHO. if numbers are available from the same tests by the same testers on the same car, can you give me a reason why this data should not be compared. Its not apples to oranges unless the tests were run differently in some fashion.


how many people have driven one tire directly after the other, other than Keiho.

As you yourself stated uncle scotty, some UHP tires are crap, thus my statement that an HPAS would outperform a number of summer tires is true.

summer and all season categories aren't some magic designation that guarantees all summer tires to be better than all seasons, and there's no reason not to compare them all directly. Perhaps tire rack does its tests differently, but i have seen nothing to indicate that.

by your logic, 'don't get too cerebral and compare numbers on tires', any tires is as good as the next. don't be ridiculous. maybe that's how you buy your tires, gut feel, but that seems pretty foolish.
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Old 07-10-2005, 02:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
nothing anyone has said has convinced me of anything so far, except for Keiho with direct experience.

To just flat out reject a comparison between the two is ridiculous IMHO. if numbers are available from the same tests by the same testers on the same car, can you give me a reason why this data should not be compared. Its not apples to oranges unless the tests were run differently in some fashion.


how many people have driven one tire directly after the other, other than Keiho.

As you yourself stated uncle scotty, some UHP tires are crap, thus my statement that an HPAS would outperform a number of summer tires is true.

summer and all season categories aren't some magic designation that guarantees all summer tires to be better than all seasons, and there's no reason not to compare them all directly. Perhaps tire rack does its tests differently, but i have seen nothing to indicate that.

by your logic, 'don't get too cerebral and compare numbers on tires', any tires is as good as the next. don't be ridiculous. maybe that's how you buy your tires, gut feel, but that seems pretty foolish.


I dont think I see many AS tires in the STX or STU classes at SCCA national events. GRM did a tire test with the best summer tires and there were some decent size time differences between first and last. Id say there would be some even larger time differences when you throw in an AS tire in there.
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Old 07-10-2005, 04:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
nothing anyone has said has convinced me of anything so far, except for Keiho with direct experience.

To just flat out reject a comparison between the two is ridiculous IMHO. if numbers are available from the same tests by the same testers on the same car, can you give me a reason why this data should not be compared. Its not apples to oranges unless the tests were run differently in some fashion.


how many people have driven one tire directly after the other, other than Keiho.

As you yourself stated uncle scotty, some UHP tires are crap, thus my statement that an HPAS would outperform a number of summer tires is true.

summer and all season categories aren't some magic designation that guarantees all summer tires to be better than all seasons, and there's no reason not to compare them all directly. Perhaps tire rack does its tests differently, but i have seen nothing to indicate that.

by your logic, 'don't get too cerebral and compare numbers on tires', any tires is as good as the next. don't be ridiculous. maybe that's how you buy your tires, gut feel, but that seems pretty foolish.


d00d....I have driven LOTS of different cars, HP cars and grandma's cars, on ALL sorts of tires......and the first thing I usually look at is what tires are on the car......and I thrash the hell out of 'em........and I have owned several sets of tires in my day and I can tell YOU that I know what I know based on this experience.
Todays GOOD UHP AS tire is a LOT better than any street tire was 15 years ago.....but the trade off is still there......so get your panties in a bunch and try to think tires to death and the end result is always gonna be the same....wasted time, effort, and energy.
Make your choice based on whatever ya want, but tryin to think it to death is a joke.
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Old 07-10-2005, 04:34 AM   #15
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this is kind of rediculous... if you need all season, you need all season. there's no need to try to compare them unless you want one tire which can do all season and still have good performance.

my advice-

get the all seasons and deal with their inferior grip, unless you want to burn money on different tires.

i have summer tires because-

1- i don't really need to drive in the snow

and

2- the monkeys are goodyear ordered the 712's when i told them i wanted ASX's.
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Old 07-10-2005, 07:13 AM   #16
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So the Tire Rack data for the different tires was all gathered from the exact same cars? On the exact same day? With the same track temperature? Same air temperature? Same driver? Same alignment settings on the cars?

All those variables and more go into determining track times. I'm assuming that when they do one of their comparison articles (comparing 4 UHP tires, for instance) that they conduct all the testing at the same time, minimizing variation in the variables above to get the most accurate test results possible. When it comes to comparing raw times of a MPS tire to a UHPAS tire to a UHP tire I don't think we can make the same assumptions. Hell, go through their data and find the same tire tested in multiple tests and see if the data's the same every time - I'll bet you'll find it's not. Here, a quick search found these three tests, each of which includes the Yoko AVS ES100 in 225/45-17 on 2003 BMW 330i coupes - http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/ge_exclaim_uhp.jsp and http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/fuzion_zri.jsp and http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...exalto_pe2.jsp . There were 2 other tests using the AVS ES100, too, but I didn't bother to open those to see if they were on the same type of car and in the same size. Looking at one single brand and size of tire on the same car tested (presumably) on 3 different days (presumably) I see 0.5sec variation for dry lap time (1.7%), 1.1sec variation for wet lap time (3.3%), 0.06sec difference for dry slalom (1.5%), 0.18sec difference for wet slalom (3.8%), 4.1ft difference in dry stopping (4.8%), and 8.1ft difference for wet stopping (8%).

Comparing test data for different tire types from different days isn't looking quite so worthwhile, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
1. A good High performance all season tire(HPAS) will hang with a significant amount of the Ultra High Performance Summer(UHP) tires on the market.

True or false?
First, let's make an important distinction here. Your questions initially asked about High Performance A/S tires, yet you then started to discuss Ultra High Performance A/S tires. Those are two different things. Yes, there's no set "break point" between the designations, so there's going to be some overlap. But it's safe to say the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S (an UHPAS) is going to outperform the Bridgestone Potenza RE950 (a HPAS) which is going to outperform the Bridgestone Turanza (a Grand Touring A/S), etc.

So, with all that said, going back to your question.... there is no answer. Or how about, "It depends." A very very good UHPAS tire (the Pilot Sport A/S and perhaps the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S would be about the only tires I would put in that category) will give a low level UHP tire (say, the ECSTA 712 or Yoko Parada Spec 2) a run for its money. Against a top level UHP tire (RE750, my old (now discontinued, I think) Firestone Firehawk SZ50s, Pilot Exalto PE2) I don't think there will be much of a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
2. The UHP tire scene is a newly developed fad to support the explosion of the boy racing scene with the advent of the fast and the furious, and UHP tires do not in fact offer a significant (let's say, 10%) advantage over the best HPAS tires.

True or false?
False. Actually, UHP tires have been around for quite a while. Goodyear VR/ZR Gatorbacks, for instance, were a UHP tire that were stock on Mustang GTs since '85 - maybe even earlier. However, there are a couple of relatively new developments in the tire world - Max Performance tires and what I would call "budget" UHP tires (ECSTA 712, Dunlop FM901, Yoko AVS ES100, etc). There have been Max Performance tires around for a while (Goodyear Eagle GSCs, Pirelli PZeros, etc), but those were generally really expensive exotic car tires. Now Max Performance tires are readily available to us plebians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
3. Which HPAS tires, if any, will offer comparable levels of grip to the stock 070's on the STi.
None. End of story.

DELTA_Rotary's point is excellent - if UHPAS tires were only slightly behind UHP and MP tires, why don't we see them used for auto-x? A good driver would easily overcome the performance handicap, and he'd have to spend less money and get tires that lasted longer at the same time! Not gonna happen.

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Old 07-10-2005, 01:43 PM   #17
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++10 points for a satisfactory answer.

The Michelin Pilot Sport A/S's are what i have been considering.

I would really like a summer tire, becuase most of the year i live in florida, but i'm getting ready for a career change and I'm not sure i want to mount them if i have to move north.

If i went for a summer tire, I'd want the T1-R's.


I agree with your response about the test data, but since i have no other data available to me. I realize its not the best comparison, but i don't think that variation makes the comparison worthless, just less valuable.

In response to the autocross remark, people who are willing to void their warranty and/or sink thousands of dollars in their car, do you really think their mentality is such that they would settle for something that is almost as good? I'm not sure that's a valid argument for or against UHPAS performance. in addition, tires such as the pilot sport are not any cheaper than MPS, so an autocrosser interested in finishing first would of course by somethign that's even slightly better for the same amount of money.

Last edited by lordzappo; 07-10-2005 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 07-10-2005, 03:20 PM   #18
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Tirerack has done one cross-category test that I can think of: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup vs. Pilot Sport vs. Pilot Sport A/S. Though the A/S performed suprisingly close to the Pilot Sport, it was ranked well behind subjectively for handling predictability, steering response, cornering stability, etc.

See the test here

Also, I'd have have to disagree you need to push a car to its limits to feel the benefits of a good summer tire. Crisp steering response and excellent feel are obvious the moment you first wheel into a turn, even at low speeds, and the better stability is easily felt at regular highway speeds.

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Old 07-10-2005, 03:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunny
Also, I'd have have to disagree you need to push a car to its limits to feel the benefits of a good summer tire. Crisp steering response and excellent feel are obvious the moment you first wheel into a turn, even at low speeds, and the better stability is easily felt at regular highway speeds.

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Old 07-10-2005, 03:31 PM   #20
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Yeah, I saw a similar tire rack test comparing a pirelli UHPAS to an UHPS. The lap time was only different by .3, but all of tire rack's subjective categories were at least .5(i.e., 6.46 to 7.3) lower, in some cases 1 lower. Which didn't make a lot of sense to me. How can it score that much lower on every front, yet not make a lot of difference on the bottom line?
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Old 07-10-2005, 05:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
In response to the autocross remark, people who are willing to void their warranty and/or sink thousands of dollars in their car, do you really think their mentality is such that they would settle for something that is almost as good? I'm not sure that's a valid argument for or against UHPAS performance. in addition, tires such as the pilot sport are not any cheaper than MPS, so an autocrosser interested in finishing first would of course by somethign that's even slightly better for the same amount of money.

GRM tested the 5 tires on the same car in the same conditions. The RT-615s were almost a second faster than the last place Kumhos. Considering that many autocrosses are decided by tenths and event hundredths "almost as good" will get you at the back of the pack. One second is a life time and Id be willing to bet that the AS wouldnt come close to touching the last place Kumho MXs.
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Old 07-10-2005, 05:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
... How can it score that much lower on every front, yet not make a lot of difference on the bottom line?
You're missing the point -- the subjective categories *are* the bottom line. The various quantitative tests can each only imperfectly measure a fraction of the various qualities of each tire. You're looking at numbers that capture maybe 5-10% of the whole tire's properties and forgetting about the other 90-95%. The subjective categories are there to try to capture the bulk of the missing 90-95%; they're not measuring just the same things as the quant. tests.
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Old 07-10-2005, 06:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armand1
The various quantitative tests can each only imperfectly measure a fraction of the various qualities of each tire.
Again I'm no expert, but this statement seems pretty ridiculous. You are saying I am better off not looking at quantitative statements of a tires performance, but a subjective test of how someone else thought the tire felt? explain.
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Old 07-10-2005, 06:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DELTA_Rotary
GRM tested the 5 tires on the same car in the same conditions. The RT-615s were almost a second faster than the last place Kumhos. Considering that many autocrosses are decided by tenths and event hundredths "almost as good" will get you at the back of the pack. One second is a life time and Id be willing to bet that the AS wouldnt come close to touching the last place Kumho MXs.
Right, I'm not giving you any argument that the better UHPS/MS tires are ideally suited and better than UHPAS for autocross.

My argument is that just because you don't see a UHPAS at an autocross event doesn't mean a good one such as the michelin won't outhandle a portion of the UHPS crowd.

and one good reason you might not see it mounted at an autocross is, the best UHPAS are priced comparably to the best UHPS/MPS, so why would anyone interested in winning buy something with less grip?

I'm enjoying this discussion.

I'm not interested in autocrossing, guys. I'm trying to retain some high performance characterstics of my car without having to worry about new tires if i do end up moving. But Autocrossing is not something I am figuring into my equations on comparing these tires. I don't want to accept a huge loss in grip though, and I am still fairly confused as to how much of a loss i'll be accepting.

Last edited by lordzappo; 07-10-2005 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 07-10-2005, 07:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordzappo
I'm not interested in autocrossing, guys. I'm trying to retain some high performance characterstics of my car without having to worry about new tires if i do end up moving. But Autocrossing is not something I am figuring into my equations on comparing these tires. I don't want to accept a huge loss in grip though, and I am still fairly confused as to how much of a loss i'll be accepting.
If you had posted the above FIRST, then we would have been able to cut to the chase and dispensed with the rest of the drivel....
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