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Old 07-16-2005, 05:37 PM   #1
gtluke
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Question school me on the 2.5rs wagon, or ts

my girlfiriend is looking for a new car right now, and we have looked at the matrix, scion tc, and the 2.5rs wagon. its going to be a commuter car, like 80 miles a day so i really don't want a wrx. plus my friend had an 03 wrx new and within 4 months it had its ignition popped out 4 times and it drove away twice. he lives a few blocks from us. the dealer today had a black wagon with black interior with an auto he said he'd give us for invoice to get it off the lot. think it was 18,1xx with the automatic. had like 100 miles on it.
both of us really like the ts also. the 02-03 model. i think they just look cool. plus with the kind of milage she'll be putting on it buying used is probably our best bet. but it looks like with buying the 05 at invoice, plus the recent college grad discount, plus the $500 cash back or the really low APR the new one isn't all that bad.

so what i want from you guys is to school me on these cars. is there a reason why she should or should not get an 02? are there changes in the car that makes any newer ones worth it? how bad is the awd auto setup compared to the awd setup on the manual transmisison cars?
is it possible to swap from an auto to a manual car on these? so when she gets like 150k on it i can throw an sti motor/drivetrain in there? haha

a little background of myself so you know i'm not a retard
i wrench on dsm's for a living at dsmotorsport. our bolt on car went 10.99 last night with some major issues.
i drive a 1991 galant vr4, for those of you that don't know what that is, its the original of this new sedan craze. 2.0 turbo 50/50 awd factory FMIC and all wheel steering. there were 3,000 imported from 91-92
its got an upgraded intercooler, press bent 2.5" exhaust, supra fuel pump and an act clutch. car has 231,000 miles on it and with the exhaust unbolted and some race gas it ran 12.83 @ 106 on full fledged snow tires.

i also have a 1986 mustange gt with a pte-67 gtq turbo and a 5.8L running an AEM EMS, but its a ford so i'm sure you don't care

so thanks for the input and hopefully i'll be rocking a subaru soon enough.

-luke-
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Old 07-16-2005, 05:42 PM   #2
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oh yeah was our driving impression of the 05 a good comparison for the 02? because the 02 ts is damn hard to find, so finding one to test drive is a pain, and i've had enough of salesmen for a while. but the guy we had at the loman subaru was AWESOME. really really nice and not pushy, and let us take the car out alone. a++ i think he was the manager there also.
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Old 07-16-2005, 05:56 PM   #3
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you get a nicer interior and a MAF based intake on the RS wagon.

you also get slightly better suspension components.


that's it.
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:01 PM   #4
gtluke
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is the maf that desireable? i figure trying to mod it you'd want the more adaptive maf system, but is the map sensor sytem lacking?
i'm going to try and find some ts interior shots. i found a dealer with 2 ts's so maybe monday we'll check them out.
thanks for the input.
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:06 PM   #5
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people seem to rant and rave about the injen maf CAI, but i really don't think it's that much of an improvement.


just test drive them. you'll get better seats in the RS and won't have ugly tan to look at but it's not like the extra 7k you're going to spend on the RSwag is going to get you anything more than a warranty. if you're looking for a tunable racer with wagon versatility... well i hate to say it but you're not going to find it very easily.

go test drive them and get the car you want the most.
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:09 PM   #6
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I got an 05 rs wagon this year so i just went through the whole process that you are going through right now. I have always been a fan of subaru so there wasnt really a choice for me when it came to other companies...the 05 versus 02 thing is the question though. i have not driven the 02 wagon, but the benefits that i can think of are that it will be cheaper, you could mod it without the warranty factor if you were thinking about that, it would have been broken in and you could tell if it was a decent car by that point. also insurance might be a little less. I am sure there are more benefits to it, but i cant really think of them.

the 05 on the other hand has the following benefits: you have a full waranty so if something goes wrong it can get fixed, its new so you get all the new cool stuff like keyless entry, cruise control (which the 02 didnt have for ts) better brakes (they have EBD), the newer look, the resale value will be higher in the long run because it is more current, by 05 subaru has worked out most the kinks and things in the new models (as opposed to the gc8's), has a standard cd player (i am not sure if the 02's had them)...again, i am sure there are more benefits.

in comparison, the 02 is cheaper and you dont have to worry about breaking it in and stuff, but there were a couple recalls (i think something with the seat adjuster...or maybe that was 03) but the 05 has the warranty, and all around better equipment along with cruise control and a cd player which are going to be big on those 80 mile drives.

all in all, the 05 is definitely the way to go if you can afford it, its newer and overall better equipment wise and with the warranty...oh and if you are a costco member, there is some deal there, ask the dealership about that...i think its kinda a little affiliation secret or something.

i hope i didnt bore you with this unbelievably long post along with probably not having all the info you were looking for, but that was what i could come up with off the top of my head...

go to cars101.com that will give you some into too (seriously check it out)
-Al
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:26 PM   #7
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very imformative thanks! we are costco members too so i'll look into that.
i won't be modding this car till she buys another one, and she will probably just trade this one in when that time comes
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Old 07-16-2005, 06:41 PM   #8
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My 02 TS auto is sitting on its bum inside the garage, and i can tell you somethings about it. Many people say the 02-03 years have the best seats (not sure, havent sat on the newers ones). And i say eveyone that sat on my seats have said its very comfy. alpors, as to the cd player question, yes it does come with a cd player. its not a 6 disc one, but its a standard cd player.

in the looks point of view, if you are trying to get a wagon, 02 has the best looks. If you want a sedan, go for the 05. IMO, theres soemthing that the newer models lack. I cant say what it is, but if you give a choice of 02wagon or 05wagon, ill definitely get the 02.

The car is great, the interior looks cheap as always (not too cheap like corolas). theres no cruise control, but who needs it. I like my speed to fluctuate once in a while.

Subarus are quite ever lasting if its not abused. So warranty or not, the 02-03 models will last you quite awhile. MAF vs MAP? I dunno, but theres a lot more varieties in aftermarket parts for 02 than 05.

And theres way more 05 models out in the streets than the 02 ones... makes you a bit more rare
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Old 07-16-2005, 09:16 PM   #9
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yeah i agree on the looks thing. i think the 02 is really cool looking. the 05 is normal looking, while the 02 is a bit strange, which i really dig. i think its the best looking one, and it does not look dated.
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Old 07-16-2005, 11:59 PM   #10
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the 05 RS has way more features than the 02 TS among the ones I can think of off the top of my head: 4 wheel disc brakes (as opposed to front disc, rear drum), cruise control, bigger and wider tires with alloy wheels, better suspension, keyless entry (though the 02 TS may have had this, I can't remember). I'd strongly reccomend the RS unless the monetary difference is big, but then again I was never a fan of the bugeyes. Had they not have redesigned the front end, I probably would have never looked into getting my OBS, though now I have come to appreciate the bugeye look.
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Old 07-17-2005, 12:44 AM   #11
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Last December, I was stuck between the tC and finding a new/slightly used Subaru. They're both on the top of my list for excellent bang for the buck cars with a lot of good qualities and very few annoyances. Scion gets Toyota's reliability and comes in a nice package in the tC form. The Camery engine was the only other engine I liked in any compact/low budget new car that was comparable to the 2.5L Subaru engine for decent power and useablity. The 2.3L Duratecs in the Focuses and Mazda3s aren't bad, but both cars have a ton of outside noise, not a fan. The Mazda3 is fun, but the old Protege5 was more elegant in design(bro has one).

When getting my current car, I was stuck between the tC for $18k and a new base Forester for $20k(base Impreza somewhere in the $17-$18 I think-all said and done). I didn't want to spend much though, had $14k, wanted to spend $14k if I could. I luckly came across an '02 Forester for $14k with low miles. I went for the Forester for practicality, room, etc. The Impreza wagons would come close though.

Honestly, if I didn't find that used one, I probably would have taken the tC, despite living in Minnesota and seeing snow deep enough to disable any 2wd vehicle at least once a winter. If winter mobility or some off-road capability is important, it's tough to beat Subaru. The feel and build quality is outstanding, so far...feels very solid.

However, I would reconsider the tC if 4wd and cargo space isn't a big concern. It's a very good car. I loved the ride, the decent, smooth power, awesome road manners, and the suprising quietness of the cabin, the only car I can remember ever being able to talk at normal talking volume at highway speed. If the girlfriend wants something a little spunkier or special, there's always some aftermarket stuff for it.

I'm not trying to lead you away from a Subaru by any means. I am a very happy Subaru owner, love my car and love what it can do. I just happen to think the tC is also a solidly built car...if its characteristics fit you/your girlfriend. You like what you like. I feel car buying is a personal experience. It's nice when you walk away with one you can really fall in love with, reguardless whatever it ends up being.


The manual and auto awd systems are different. The auto uses electronically controlled clutch packs to send power to the rear. I'm not sure about the initial torque split, 60/40 I think. I think it can go as far back as 40/60 and up to 80/20, don't quote me. I think you can pull a fuse and turn it into a fwd too...if you were bored. I've only driven the manual version. It's a full viscous system, front, rear, and middle. It's 50/50 to start and can run from 80/20 to 20/80. numberwise, it would seem more versitile than the auto. However, I think there's a benfit in the auto with the electronically controlled center diff. It shouldn't fluctuate as much and kick the rear end out like the manual can do at times. The full viscous setup is a little more dynamic and less predictable when torque is getting thrown around to each wheel. I can't say if the auto is better or worse as I haven't driven it, just kind of guessing. This isn't really an issue unless you're really playing with the car on some loose gravel or something

The awd system is an outstanding system, and makes off-road jaunts down back roads and ditches or wintery excersions through a foot and a half of snow at 50mph look like childsplay(Forester has a little more ground clearance than Impreza though). It's neat how stable it feels, and the traction is almost all stick or all spin as far as the tires go, very little individual wheel spin unless you really put some effort into it. It feels really solid under power and on loose, uneven surfaces. My mom has a Honda CRV, and this think makes that car feel like a toy. The awd isn't even comparable. Then again, the Honda has open front/rear diffs and promotes pretty easy individual wheel spin and an overall uneasy feeling on uneven surfaces.

The impressive awd capability and the plentiful cargo space would be the two things I'd miss the most if I ended up with the tC. The headroom in the back seat is a little iffy for the tC too. If it's just you and her, who cares, lol, but it's something to concider when hauling a couple of your(probably her) friends around town.

Oh, for model years on the Impreza, 2002 was the redesign year, so you're getting the newer chassis/body style from 02 on. There would only be very minor changes from 02 to 03, not sure what. My Forester on the other hand didn't get remade till 03, so if you were looking at Foresters, the 03 would be the first year of the new model. For looks, I always liked the old Impreza body style. The bugeye look ruined it for me. I'm glad the Forester never got it. Again, it's all personal preference. A lot of people love the bugeye look.

Ok, I babbled long enough. Time for others to give you some actual useful information.
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Old 07-17-2005, 07:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiff Giant
keyless entry (though the 02 TS may have had this, I can't remember).
Dunno about this one, but the subaru dealer is kind enough to give me a free Prestige alarm that has keyless entry
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:41 AM   #13
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awesome replies. thanks!
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:39 PM   #14
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the indecision continues.
a local subi dealer will give us an 05 at invoice at 1.9%, but we also checked out some bug eye ts's and they are nice. they had a stick shift one with 15k on it, and an auto with 45k. we are looking for an auto with like 25-30k if we go used.
hard to find these cars.
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Old 07-20-2005, 09:19 PM   #15
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The '02 TS did not come with keyless entry, but it can be added very easily. I bought the factory kit from my dealer for $65 and installed it in five minutes. The '03 TS added rear discs and cruise as standard, but you won't find one.

Used TSs are very rare. My dealer has been after me to trade mine in for a year, not just to give him business on a new model, but because they honestly don't have any politely-used Impreza wagons in stock.

IMO the new RS wagon is a good value for the money, though if a proper TS comes up, have it checked out and see if it fits what you are looking for. Don't overpay on a used model - keep in mind that a new RS wagon could be had in the $17k range, and that the '02 is getting on four years old. [Mine was built in January 2001].

Best of luck.
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Old 07-20-2005, 11:58 PM   #16
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cool. was disk brakes an option on the 02? is the harness all there for the keyless kit on the 02? just buy the setup and plug it in?
i assume i can fit disk brakes on the back if i feel like it easily off a crashed wrx or something? can i fit it with cruise control from another model?
thanks for the awesome responses so far.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:12 AM   #17
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Man, I'd get the tC if AWD is not a requirement

If you are really looking for AWD, I love my 05 RS wagon...but you should be able to do way better than $18.1k + TTT. I got my 5MT for $18k out-the-door back in February, and now they are looking to really move them off the lot. I'd offer the same for an auto at this point, and I'd be surprised if they didn't do it.

But seriously, the tC is an awesome car...Toyota reliability, an awesome interior and exterior, Toyota should be out with an "official" supercharger in not too much longer if you ever wanted to do anything like that to it.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:15 AM   #18
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Oh, and my sister just got a used 2004 Vibe (Matrix in Pontiac clothing), and it's a very nice car, but not near as much fun to drive as my RS...I'm not sure if your GF really would notice that kind of thing or not. The base engine is only 1.8L and like 130 HP at the crank. Still, it's very nice inside, Toyota reliability, etc etc.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:24 AM   #19
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out of your cars id get the 05 wagon

the TS has steelies and rear drum brakes im not a fan of either of those two so thad be enough for me not to get it

scion is not TO bad of a car but theres alot of little things i hate, feels like such a 12yr old car, by that i mean age factor.

the matrix if you mean the toyota, just really hate these things im not sure what it is but nothing with them is comfortable, seating-driving-gauges-etc

so get the 05 and be happy! i sure would be
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:34 AM   #20
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My friends have a matrix (vibe) and it is SLOW...

Anyways, If rear drums is an issue, my 04 TS had rear discs. It just isn't bugeyed.
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Old 07-21-2005, 07:04 AM   #21
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Only the '02 TS had rear drums. '03+ had rear discs. They're not pretty but they're fine for daily driving. Not buying the car simply because of this factor is silly. The "steelies" bit is even easier to fix - any of the four billion Impreza wheel options can be put to use here [I have '00 16" RS rims for summer use, they look hot].

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtluke
was disk brakes an option on the 02? is the harness all there for the keyless kit on the 02? just buy the setup and plug it in?
i assume i can fit disk brakes on the back if i feel like it easily off a crashed wrx or something? can i fit it with cruise control from another model?
1. Rear discs were not an option in '02, though they did come on the OBS. [All '03+ TSs had rear disks standard].

2. Rear discs can be fit from parts from a WRX, but it's a hassle and IMO not worth it unless you are determined and have a very good understanding what you are doing. There is zero reason to replace the drums on a daily driven '02 apart from cosmetics [they're not gorgeous].

3. Yes the harness/wiring is ready for the keyless kit. Literally you pull over the lower dash cover, put the keyless receiver box in with one screw, and plug it in to the waiting harness. Five minutes.

4. Short answer on cruise control: You can't fit it from another model. If CC is a must have option you should try to find an '03+ TS [or an '02+ OBS], as CC was standard from then.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piker28
out of your cars id get the 05 wagon

the TS has steelies and rear drum brakes im not a fan of either of those two so thad be enough for me not to get it

scion is not TO bad of a car but theres alot of little things i hate, feels like such a 12yr old car, by that i mean age factor.

the matrix if you mean the toyota, just really hate these things im not sure what it is but nothing with them is comfortable, seating-driving-gauges-etc

so get the 05 and be happy! i sure would be
How on earth does the tC feel old? It's got a very modern design throughout...it feels every bit as "new" as the RS wagon. You didn't really back up anything bad you said about it (age factor? ***?)...I find it hard to believe you've ever even sat in a tC or Matrix.

lol, and if he spent, say, $12,000 on an '03 bugeye TS, he'd have plenty leftover for some decent rims if the steel ones bothered him.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:41 AM   #23
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read what i said again, hence the "i mean age facotr" as in it was designed for a 12yr old kid.

they try to slap all this stuff on it so it makes the car feel its something that its not


and to an earlier post, YES drum brakes in the rear would prevent me from buying a car...i do not like them nor do i support the idea of those things
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piker28
and to an earlier post, YES drum brakes in the rear would prevent me from buying a car...i do not like them nor do i support the idea of those things
That's a silly opinion to be held by someone with the title of "Guru", but I guess we all have different priorities. How do you think the cars of the world stopped before the magical disk brake arrived? Fred Flinstone power?

For daily driving use, especially on a car like the TS, the drums don't make a wee spot of difference. Sure I'd love to have discs, but it amounts to a cosmetic upgrade in all but the most extreme driving environments.
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Old 07-21-2005, 12:56 PM   #25
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well lets see about this hmmmm, we have all have different opinions your sad aspect of trying to get everyone to believe yours are the only right ones is a poor attitude.

I simply stated i do not like them, never have, never will...if you like them be my guest and have them for all i care.

oh and yes back in the day all they had were drums and thats why so many people with muscle cars crashed...DER
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