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Old 07-25-2005, 10:39 AM   #1
n2xlr8n
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Default IAT alternatives for Hydra EMS?

I'm not going to use the stock MAF / IAT on my project, due to limiting size of the stock MAF dia. Has anyone used an alternative single-unit IAT on the Hydra? They are out there, I'm just wondering if anyone has successfully used one.

What about the stock MAP sensor? It's done @ 22 psi, correct? What are the bigger turbo guys doing about that?

Thanks, folks.

Steve
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:56 AM   #2
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I am very interested in this as well.

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Old 07-25-2005, 11:06 AM   #3
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There was somone selling the MAF sensor mounting plates on here a while ago. Why can't you just put the stock sensor in one of your charge pipes and use the stock IAT sensor?

TMS
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
There was somone selling the MAF sensor mounting plates on here a while ago. Why can't you just put the stock sensor in one of your charge pipes and use the stock IAT sensor?

TMS

I'm not familiar with the plates you are referring to. I'll search.

The stock IAT is an integral part of the I.D. limited stock MAF housing....if I removed the MAF / IAT and inserted into my 4" intake, I'm afraid it wouldn't read the temp properly. I could probably reverse-engineer something, but I'm wondering whether or not it's been done before.
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:22 AM   #5
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can you edit the sensor peramiters with the hydra

i know that the GM IAT sensor that i am using for my tec has a data sheet that goes with it and its cheeeep
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:27 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2xlr8n
I'm not familiar with the plates you are referring to. I'll search.

The stock IAT is an integral part of the I.D. limited stock MAF housing....if I removed the MAF / IAT and inserted into my 4" intake, I'm afraid it wouldn't read the temp properly. I could probably reverse-engineer something, but I'm wondering whether or not it's been done before.
The sensor it self is removable from the tube it sits in. Since you are not using the MAF part of the sensor it won't matter how large the tube it sits in is.

The other option is the GM sensor.

TMS
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:07 PM   #7
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Steve, Phil is using the GM sensor with a 3.5" intake:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717399
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:12 PM   #8
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Use a standard GM one. I compared one to my stock MAP sensor's temperature when I was running a Haltech, and they were nearly dead on.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:34 PM   #9
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Thanks, guys.

I obviously missed the first post.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:31 PM   #10
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You can use the OEM Maf probe in the larger intake without issue or use the GM IAT. If you install this in the intake you will not have to alter the IAT map but if you install it after the IC you will have to make some adjustments.

Also the Hydra has a built in 3 bar map sensor and does not use the OEM sensor.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
You can use the OEM Maf probe in the larger intake without issue or use the GM IAT. If you install this in the intake you will not have to alter the IAT map but if you install it after the IC you will have to make some adjustments.

Also the Hydra has a built in 3 bar map sensor and does not use the OEM sensor.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Thanks, Phil.

I guess there would be a benefit to mounting the IAT sensor in the post-intercooler pipe leading to the TB?
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:55 PM   #12
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With a standalone, you're supposed to install the IAT in the manifold, or just before the TB. Otherwise you're going to be kicking yourself in the nuts trying to get it tuned right. Depending on the weather (wind, etc), your temperature after the intercooler could be a lot different from run to run with the same inlet temperatures.

The equation for fueling in a MAP-based setup is strictly IAT/CTS/MAP based as to what is going into the engine (other than the CTS, obviously).
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Old 07-25-2005, 07:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
With a standalone, you're supposed to install the IAT in the manifold, or just before the TB. Otherwise you're going to be kicking yourself in the nuts trying to get it tuned right. Depending on the weather (wind, etc), your temperature after the intercooler could be a lot different from run to run with the same inlet temperatures.

The equation for fueling in a MAP-based setup is strictly IAT/CTS/MAP based as to what is going into the engine (other than the CTS, obviously).
Initially that's what I thought would be the case but hasn't proven itself true the way we have the Hydras setup. We've been running intake temps pre-turbocharger for over a year and the AFR has been solid down to -20C and up to 70C.

If this weren't the case I would have installed the GM IAT in my own car. I do have a customer who uses the JDM IAT at the throttle body and he said it was a bit more consistent when the car is sitting still.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-25-2005, 07:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2xlr8n
Thanks, Phil.

I guess there would be a benefit to mounting the IAT sensor in the post-intercooler pipe leading to the TB?
You’re welcome. Theoretically that should be true but read my previous post. If I really thought it would improve things on my own car I would have done it by now. I’m currently taking my air temp reading from the fender well so they are slightly isolated from the under hood temps.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 07-26-2005 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 07-26-2005, 12:44 AM   #15
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i sure would want it post IC just thinking bout the proublems that could occure in traffic enduced heat soak w/ a TMIC

guess it also depends on how ecu deals with the temp readings that it gets
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Old 07-26-2005, 05:58 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
i sure would want it post IC just thinking bout the proublems that could occure in traffic enduced heat soak w/ a TMIC

guess it also depends on how ecu deals with the temp readings that it gets
The Hydra has a programmable IAT correction map. This map is programmed for you but one would simply heat soak the engine bay and adjust the IAT correction map to maintain the same AFR. This process is performed for all conceivable intake air temps and is a year long process.

The temperature of your TMIC will be similar to the temperature read by your engine bay IAT taken at the intake or at the throttle body. Post IC IAT readings without much air flow are also susceptible to heat soak situations and are tuned identically. Your OEM ecu does nothing specifically for heat soak either. Good tuning practice such as coolant correction mapping is used to indicate and combat possible heat soak situations.

With over a year worth of testing to perfect the IAT map and data to back this up I am not compelled in the least to change even though it's only $40 to add the GM IAT. If one preferred a post IC IAT the map is 2D and can be adjusted easily but would take a full year worth of adjustments to get perfect. I think this is one of those cases where the benefits just don’t add up to much in the real world.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:09 AM   #17
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I have to argue here because I have battled long and hard with a standalone in the past over IAT and CTS corrections.

While they may not be major issues, I am sure that having the IAT's measured pre-turbo does not lend towards an accurate mapping of air into the motor. Any type of differing airflow over the intercooler and the true IAT's (in the manifold) can be all over the place compared to the temps at the air filter.

Quote:
The temperature of your TMIC will be similar to the temperature read by your engine bay IAT taken at the intake or at the throttle body. Post IC IAT readings without much air flow are also susceptible to heat soak situations and are tuned identically.
Who in their right mind would run a standalone ECU while still running a TMIC, though? If you have a big turbo, chances are your piping will restrict you from having a TMIC.

Now don't get me wrong, I am sure having it pre-turbo would work, I just don't think that it is the most accurate way to go about it. If all maps had a built in margin of error, that would be fine... but the joe blow on the street tuning his own car would likely go up to the point of detonation, and pull back a hair, basically creating an "on the edge" map that would very likely have problems of detonation if tuned for non-heatsoaked situations.
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
Who in their right mind would run a standalone ECU while still running a TMIC, though?
Who in their right mind would make sweeping assumptions about the characteristics of standalone owners?

TD05H-16G +
EJ207 shortblock +
TGV deletes +
TMIC +
Street/autocross +
Want to tune it myself +
Personally feel that piggybacks are hacks +
Purist mentality +
No emissions testing in state =

I own a standalone.

Quote:
Now don't get me wrong, I am sure having it pre-turbo would work
Would work? Does work.

Quote:
but the joe blow on the street tuning his own car would likely go up to the point of detonation, and pull back a hair, basically creating an "on the edge" map that would very likely have problems of detonation if tuned for non-heatsoaked situations.
WhoTF cares about the case of "Joe Blow" street tuning a standalone that he hasn't taken the time to understand?

Your argument is that "someone foolish on the street tuning a standalone to the ragged edge of detonation in non-heatsoaked conditions may blow up his engine!!!"

? ? ?

In Joe Blow's case, which I couldn't really care less about, the Hydra, for one, will adapt to the knock as the heat builds and causes issue. Depending on the configuration, timing may be retarded and fuel may be added due to the knock. If it crosses a threshold, the backup spark map is used, etc etc etc.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:00 AM   #19
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There really isn't any argument as I agree with what I believe you are trying to say but I've never claimed pre-turbocharger IAT was better.

“While they may not be major issues, I am sure that having the IAT's measured pre-turbo does not lend towards an accurate mapping of air into the motor. Any type of differing airflow over the intercooler and the true IAT's (in the manifold) can be all over the place compared to the temps at the air filter.”

What I'm saying it that it hardly makes a difference in AFR and this is where we disagree. My point has been that the AFR will not stray with a pre-turbocharger IAT reading because once the air enters the turbocharger there will be no miraculous way to increase oxygen. Without more 02 the AFR will hold true regardless of where you r IAT sensor is unless you tell it to do otherwise. I believe the temperature of the air entering the turbocharger is more indicative of its 02 content then variable and heated reading post turbocharger.

There are instances where an inferior IC will heat up during a very long pull and a post IC IAT will allow you to increase the AFR to prevent detonation. I believe this is your point and I agree but there are other ways to provide adequate protection such as the coolant temp fuel and spark corrections along with proper mapping.

Without getting into all the nuances of tuning, a static AFR is not used at all boost and rpm ranges. Maps are tuned with a margin of error and will always be but more importantly they are tuned with a specific set of modification in mind. The AFR run at a turbocharger’s peak efficiency will be much leaner than when run at very high boost pressures. Each map is designed for a specific turbocharger’s characteristics and tuned under extreme conditions, not for ideal conditions so they are setup with heat soak in mind.

“….but the joe blow on the street tuning his own car would likely go up to the point of detonation, and pull back a hair, basically creating an "on the edge" map that would very likely have problems of detonation if tuned for non-heatsoaked situations.”

We all know joe blow is capable and has blown up his car but that’s why we provide great base maps along with tech support and of course excellent knock protection. As a company we have our customers best interests at heart and since joe blow doesn’t really know how to tune the IAT map I’m suggesting they use what we’ve developed and consider appropriate for even our own use.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
blah blah blah blah blah
Thats nice. If you got it before something like the AP/ST came out, then fine, but otherwise it's far, FAR overkill for what you've got. Unless, of course, you're a control freak and/or paranoid of "the man" reading things off your stock ECU.


Phil gets my point, I just wanted to point it out for people reading this thread so that they don't get the wrong impression.

Thought of another instance where a pre-turbo IAT could be problematic... when using one of those cryo-rings or nitrous.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:25 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
Thought of another instance where a pre-turbo IAT could be problematic... when using one of those cryo-rings or nitrous.

A dry system of course....but what kind of wannabe racer would use a dry system, for christmas sakes?


















J/K

Thanks for the help, everyone.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
Thats nice. If you got it before something like the AP/ST came out, then fine, but otherwise it's far, FAR overkill for what you've got. Unless, of course, you're a control freak and/or paranoid of "the man" reading things off your stock ECU.
Sure, except that AP/ST can't handle TGV CELs and throw you into limp mode. How about you don't worry about what people have chosen and why? If I have a bone stock WRX and want to add WI and use a Hydra for it, what the F do you care what my reasons are for it? It's my money.

Quote:
Phil gets my point, I just wanted to point it out for people reading this thread so that they don't get the wrong impression.
As do I, entirely, once I read your post 3 times to get through the description/reasoning you gave. And I got it before my previous reply.

Quote:
Thought of another instance where a pre-turbo IAT could be problematic... when using one of those cryo-rings or nitrous.
An actual good point!
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Old 07-26-2005, 06:47 PM   #23
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I'm running an AEM standalone on my car which is stock but for an APS TBE and CAI.

(ducks and runs from 8complex)
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Old 08-01-2005, 06:30 PM   #24
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SR55 here with a spearco tmic tgv deletes and 850's... afraid of the man HAHA... control freak, I guess you could call it that. Steve, you could always ixnay the stock maf housing and still place it preturbo thus solving your problem and sticking with Phils philosophy.
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Old 08-02-2005, 01:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3RMIN4L
Steve, you could always ixnay the stock maf housing and still place it preturbo thus solving your problem and sticking with Phils philosophy.
Yepper. That's the plan.

Thanks again, folks.
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