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Old 08-13-2001, 07:18 PM   #1
ARG
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Unhappy If the Japanese spec WRX is 280 hp, why are those trannies not breaking?

Ok, we all know that the tranny is the weak link in a North American Subaru. But what model tranny is used in the Japanese spec 280hp WRX? Is it not the same as ours?

Is the Jap spec tranny stronger?

Lets get a group buy on used WRX 5 speeds from Japan and end this problem......

ARG
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Old 08-13-2001, 07:32 PM   #2
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i say 6 speed!
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Old 08-13-2001, 09:36 PM   #3
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I thought that the drivetrain was weak on the RS not the WRX. I haven't seen much on blown WRX trannies, mostly it's been people with turbo'd RS's that are trashing trannies.
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Old 08-13-2001, 09:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Keith99RS
I thought that the drivetrain was weak on the RS not the WRX. I haven't seen much on blown WRX trannies, mostly it's been people with turbo'd RS's that are trashing trannies.
Turbo'd RS= TORQUE!!
turbo ej20= hehe, not so much torque hehe

and torque breaks gears... but its oh so fun having lots of it
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Old 08-13-2001, 09:58 PM   #5
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That's what I thought kaos200. Then this post is kinda comparing apples to oranges then. Two different motors and two different trannies.
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Old 08-13-2001, 10:05 PM   #6
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after owning both rs and now a wrx.. i can definately agree that the tranny is the weakest link.

ive already blown my 3-4th gear syncos. and just the overall feel of it (even with kartboy) just feels bad.

i need a hardened gear set or a dog box =)
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Old 08-13-2001, 10:11 PM   #7
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I didn`t think the trans was differant just the gears. isn`t the gears for the dog box for the wrx to .the torque is why ya lets get some 6 speeds here and as long as where doing that lets get the STI eng. to, aw heck lets get the hole darn car on a group buy.
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Old 08-13-2001, 10:45 PM   #8
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Just out of curiousity,(stock or lightly modded RS's & WRX's) what are people doing when their transmissions are blowing out? I find it hard to believe under normal or spirited driving, that a transmission will self destruct or syncros will turn to ruin. I can see if you are pushing 300 hp, but it seems some people are having trouble with lesser modded cars.
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Old 08-14-2001, 01:18 AM   #9
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What "problem?" There isn't a "problem" that I can discern. Certainly, if there were a rash of tranny problems, this board would have heard about them ad infinitum, like we've heard about the WRX paint/sunvisor/body ding/whatever stuff.

My tranny is smooth, precise, and shifts beautifully. If I decide to build the car up to 300+ horsepower and it breaks, I expect to pay. That's life.

As I posted above, I still haven't seen conclusive evidence, or any real evidence that a WRX or RS, even with moderate power mods, driven in a normal manner, has a "weak" transmission. I'm starting to find it all funny. It's like a grapevine that keeps getting the story wrong, but the story keeps going around. "Subaru transmissions are weak, pass it along." Then another thread starts about someone worrying about a problem they haven't had, and probably won't have.

I'm starting to find it all rather funny. There's another weak tranny thread below, and yet none of them have conclusive evidence. Until I see more data, I'm not going to worry, but that's just me.

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Old 08-14-2001, 01:37 AM   #10
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I should point out something no one else has bothered to (surprisingly). The home market WRX specs out at around ~245hp. Only around 20 more hp than what we get.

The STi, the 280hp WRX in question, receives the 6 speed manual trans.

Now, I haven't done much research into the different transmissions, so I can't provide an array of details and facts and figures. I'd be willing to bet that the 6 speed is a stronger box altogether. Regardless, the 280hp STi doesn't use the same 5 speed as our WRX, so this discussion seems somewhat irrelevant anyways.
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Old 08-14-2001, 03:58 AM   #11
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Japanese WRX used to have 280 until the model change. GC8 was 280 ps and GDA is 250.
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Old 08-14-2001, 07:21 AM   #12
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I see people using Integra LS trannys in 500 hp monster Integras, the LS comes stock with 140 hp, thats a 360 hp bump!!! Why can't our tranny's do that???
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Old 08-14-2001, 09:09 AM   #13
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That's a good question 96L. I don't care what anyone says, RSs don't have that much torque. 165 ft.lbs max of torque isn't all that much and there are cars that run 3 or 4 times that much and have no tranny problems.

As far as this all being a rumor, there are several people on this board that have killed their trannies,usually by drag racing them and using racing clutches. Ask around and you'll find them. You'll even see a lot of pics around of chewed up 1st and 2nd gears.
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Old 08-14-2001, 09:49 AM   #14
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Well, I know that there are people who have broken trannies doing hardcore stuff. I guess that I'm referring to the people who are driving the car normally/aggressively (not me, though ) with mild to moderate power mods.

It's my understanding that with AWD cars especially, the clutch is the safety valve, so to speak. Put in a racing clutch and all that jazz, and that extra mojo's gotta go somewhere.

I know that some WRX people are having problems, but I just don't recall seeing that many threads on normally driven/modded cars having tranny problems. I don't even think Imprezer's can o'whoopass is having tranny issues, unless I've missed something.

Kevin
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Old 08-14-2001, 10:25 AM   #15
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From the pictures I have seen of the new STI 6 speed transmission it is a completely different unit from the 5 speed. The 5 speed case bolts together in 2 halves, from what I can tell in the few pics I have seen of the 6 speed it looks like it is an end loading transmission, meaning all the gears and shafts are installed into the case from the rear and then a seperate tail section is bolted onto the main case. That is a more traditional design common to rear wheel drive transmissions and if that is the design of the new 6 speed I would be willing to bet it is quite a bit more durable than the 5 speed. If it is that much stronger it might actually justify the expense of swapping to the 6 speed if you plan on making really big power.
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Old 08-14-2001, 11:41 AM   #16
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Let me see what I can cover here:

J Spec 280ps: Until 2001(over there) the Old Age WRX STI had the same 5 speed case as we got on the Old Age RS over here. The gears may have been different, but I assume not much stronger, just ratios. It wasn't until 2001 that the New Age WRX STI had the 6-speed box(new design, to prevent casing flex). We still never heard about all of these gears braking. The P1 has the same power and 5-speed case and I've never heard about it tearing up gears.

500hp Integra: These generate all their HP at high RPM. I believe this would make it alot less jarring to the transmission. Plus, their are a 2WD so their wheels will slip and not force all of the torque into the transmission.

I tend to agree with gtguy here.
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Old 08-14-2001, 01:36 PM   #17
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The fact is that the Subaru tranny IS weak. I have been on this board since 99 and remember reading many, many posts about the tranny durability.

It seems that the 2.5, when built up, provides a tremendous amount of torque that the 5-speed can't deal with. With the little EJ2.0 torque is not an issue.

Anyone know of a good used 22B 5-speed for sale?

And that GT dude is correct in only one respect: with AWD, a weak clutch is a good safety valve. If you have a 300hp motor and a 6-puck copper/kevlar clutch, and you dump it in first at 6000 rpm, something is going to give, and it may not be your tires.

Now it seems that there is a guy named Byron with a 600+ Impreza that CAN burn off all 4 tires at once, but he doesn't have a stock tranny either.

ARG
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Old 08-14-2001, 02:08 PM   #18
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Default WRX transmission/torque

I've been following this thread, and searching the web for information related to the transmission of the WRX. I've not found much, but I have learned this: it ain't the horsepower that kills the transmission. It's good old torque. I've written to SOA to try to get the max tolerance of torque for the manual transmission. The EJ20 is not a torque monster in stock trim, but I'm thinking of the APS RT-Spec system as an upgrade, and I don't want to leave my tranny sitting at light when I try to pull off. I recall a good articel Shiv wrote in SCC mag when he broke the stock tranny on his project Impreza. He refers to torque as being the main culrpit in transmission failures. I recently read hear that he wasted third gear with his modified tranny too.So far no one seems to make a decent tranny upgrade for this car. I guess the design has seen it's best days, and Subaru needs to do something else.
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Old 08-14-2001, 02:25 PM   #19
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I read that according to Prodrive, 260 is the max torque number that can be run without having to worry about the gearbox. That should be quite a bit of horsepower, some number around 300.

Kevin
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Old 08-14-2001, 02:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zahnster

Plus, their are a 2WD so their wheels will slip and not force all of the torque into the transmission.
I agree. I think too much torque and no slippage will equal breakage.

theoretically... if the transmission were to hold would the rest of the driveline hold up? or would we bust driveshafts and such?

-wop
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Old 08-14-2001, 02:55 PM   #21
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This whole premise is flawed.

The WRX gearbox is fundamentally NO different from the RS gearbox. Even if it had 'hardened' STi gears, it wouldn't be terribly durable under rally conditions or hard tarmac use. (Group N is allowed dog gears this year to allow someone besides Mitsubishi Lancers --aka Subaru Imprezas-- to have a chance to finish a rally.)

That's right, the WRX has the glassbox as well. Only the new Impreza STi has the six speed, all previous ones did have the same 5spd we have and they are undisputedly the weakest point in the powertrain. Other AWD cars have gearbox survivability issues as well, but Subaru's rep is particularly well deserved.

At any rate it's not nearly pure power, it's how hard on it you are. If you're nice to the tranny it can probably take 300HP for a while. If not, you can kill it with stock 2.5RS power.
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Old 08-14-2001, 11:33 PM   #22
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The inherent problem with the gearbox is it flexes a fair bit if you have more power. Some of the actual size of teeth and the tooth contact is very small on the upper and lower mainshafts. The most common thing I see that causes them to break is the shockload it takes from hard shifting or constant on and off load from left-foot breaking in rallying. Thats why they I think they went to a new design gearbox which turns out to be the 6 speed in the new Wrx. The layout is different as also the size of the gears.
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Old 08-15-2001, 08:19 AM   #23
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I was cruising a Mitsubishi EVO board, and was gratifed (?) to see that car also has transmission problems. I then read somewhere else that the transmission is often the weak link in awd cars. I guess I have to remember that the WRX is a compact car (basically). Still, it's marketed as an enthusiast's car. I guess that doesn't infer that the car is prime for modifications. We proceed at our own risks. My old MR2 turbo's tranny was good for over 375 ft/lbs of torque (according to several posted dyno results). I'd say it was substantially overbuilt. But it was only rear wheel drive too.
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Old 08-15-2001, 11:05 AM   #24
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Even with AWD traction, do you really think that we are putting more torque on our trannies than say a mustang that has enough traction to do a wheelie in a drag race? I agree however that because it's a more complex design, and needs to be in a tighter space, the AWD trannies may sacrifice durability for space savings.

I agree that it's shock loading that is the major problem.

About whether it's torque or horsepower that's killing the trannies....of course it's torque.

Torque is rotational force, and force is what breaks thinks. Horsepower is power, which is force*distance/time (with a lot of unit conversions to get to torque in ft.lbs).
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Old 08-15-2001, 01:55 PM   #25
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Since the GDA WRXs are heavier than the JDM GC8 WRXs it should put more strain on the tranny during launches. I think these are one of the reasons to premature tranny failure.
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