Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Water/Methanol Injection, Nitrous & Intercooler Cooling

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-15-2005, 05:32 PM   #1
03MBP
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32460
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Staten Island, NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester XT
OBP

Default Race gas tune Vs water injection?

I'm debating getting either a race gas tune for my VF22 or water injection, now I understand that eventually buying race gas will creep up in cost, but water is also easier to find...that being said is there really any difference in performance between the two octane boosters? Any long terms effects that would make one better then the other?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
03MBP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 06:16 PM   #2
Funkmonster
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 82114
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
WRB

Default

You realize you'll have to tune for the water injection right? If it were me, I'd go with water injection. That's something you can run every day without having to shell out big $$ for race gas or octane boosters. Then while you're in the shop getting tuned, have them make a race gas + water injection map for some fun at the track
Funkmonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 06:24 PM   #3
03MBP
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32460
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Staten Island, NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester XT
OBP

Default

I know I would have to be tuned for WI or race gas...just wondering if there is any advantage to either other then initial price (race gas) vs price to replace (water is cheaper then c16).
03MBP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 07:58 PM   #4
scooterforever
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 55011
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Vehicle:
2002

Default

You might have a little more lag than before depending on the tune with WI, right as the water comes on. But that would probably be it. I would vote for water (actually, given your location, a mix of at least 25% methanol / 75% water) for the following reasons:

1. cheaper
2. can run it as a daily driver
3. daily usage doesn't actually use up that much water / alky. I have going through about a gallon of mix every two or three weeks. And I floor it whenever I can
4. water injection will steam clean your internals and lower your EGTs
scooterforever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 08:08 PM   #5
dust12
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13417
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Blue

Default

I'll just throw this out there as PRO's for race gas.
#1 you don't have to buy or install additional hardware
#2 you don't have to worry about running out of water while your boosting and killing your engine.
#3 you don't have to worry about periodically checking your nozzles to make sure they are spraying properly.

With that being said, I'm probably going to install water injection on my daily driver. If this were a race track only car. I would probably just use the race gas...
dust12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 08:29 PM   #6
scooterforever
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 55011
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Vehicle:
2002

Default

Course, there is one possibility if you're on the wild side and have $$$ to spare:

both
scooterforever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 08:43 PM   #7
dust12
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13417
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Blue

Default

Added benefits to water injection is it cleans the carbon deposits off your internals. As for dyno results, which is better then the other and by how much? I think race gas is going to produce the better results, however on a VF22 probably not by much. This is just speculation on my part and I have no proof to back it up.

Also there are different octanes of race gas as well. You have the standard unleaded 101 racegas, and then there is the 116 leaded gas. You have to be catless for the leaded gas though...
dust12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 08:47 PM   #8
03MBP
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32460
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Staten Island, NY
Vehicle:
2005 Forester XT
OBP

Default

I am catless...I've just been seeing alot of dynos with wi or race gas...alot of good points have been made, hopefully they keep coming. For my DD I think wi is the way I might go to squeeze a little more power out of my setup and then maybe step up to an 18G which would work even better on higher octane...but for now I'm tinkering with the VF22.
03MBP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 08:59 PM   #9
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 13.239@102.85 @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
e85forum.net

Default

Quote:
...that being said is there really any difference in performance between the two octane boosters?
The potential power output on WI is actually higher if you have the balls to tune for it. Most use it as octane insurance where the difference is pretty much a toss up.

The high power tune on WI is an all or nothing tune ! If you lose the WI you also lose the motor. Of course the same thing applys to race gas if you have a fuel injector problem or fuel pressure problem on an agressive race gas tune, the lean out will kill the engine too.

The potential WI power increase, can be over 50% of the engines power on gasoline alone, where race gas might be workt 40 - 50 hp.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 09:06 PM   #10
Funkmonster
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 82114
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod
The potential power output on WI is actually higher if you have the balls to tune for it. Most use it as octane insurance where the difference is pretty much a toss up.

The high power tune on WI is an all or nothing tune ! If you lose the WI you also lose the motor. Of course the same thing applys to race gas if you have a fuel injector problem or fuel pressure problem on an agressive race gas tune, the lean out will kill the engine too.

The potential WI power increase, can be over 50% of the engines power on gasoline alone, where race gas might be workt 40 - 50 hp.

Larry
I haven't been seeing those kinds of numbers on Suby's... it definitely depends on the setup though. That may be the case on big turbo setups, but on a small(ish) turbo like a VF34 or VF22, you can't crank the boost up too high because the turbo will just run out of steam. <- atleast from what I've seen. On VF34 cars, people are running ~19 psi with WI, where I'm running 17 without. On a VF22 you might be able to squeeze out 22-23 psi so I'd be interested to see what kinds of numbers that yields.
Funkmonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 10:14 PM   #11
scooterforever
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 55011
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Vehicle:
2002

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkmonster
On VF34 cars, people are running ~19 psi with WI, where I'm running 17 without.
It all depends on supporting mods, timing, fueling, and boost, but:

-- I ran 20-21 lbs on the stock TMIC without WI, and
-- I now run 20 - 21 lbs on an aftermarket TMIC with a 50/50 meth mix (with more timing and less fuel)

Again, there are a number of factors that go into the tune, and WI does allow higher boost, but with the right supporting mods the VF-34 can go above 17 lbs. Course, I can now attest to the fact that 20/21 lbs is about the limit of the stock BPV. Mine screetches at WOT.
scooterforever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2005, 10:57 PM   #12
DuoMaxwell
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 24565
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Misawa Japan
Vehicle:
2000 V6 STi RA #856
Blue

Default

Or you can go strictly alky injection.
Do the good 2 map type set-up. One with alky one without and make sure you have a kill switch for the alky set-up!!

Alky rules no need for 116 leaded race gas!!
DuoMaxwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2005, 05:09 AM   #13
hotrod
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14141
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 13.239@102.85 @ 5800 ft on 13T
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
e85forum.net

Default

Quote:
I haven't been seeing those kinds of numbers on Suby's... it definitely depends on the setup though.
Right, I'm talking about a setup that has the supporting mods to reach the limits of WI.
In 1943 the NACA (now NASA) researchers working with supercharged aircraft engines, achieved the following increases in MEP ( mean effective pressure) on engines using WI.

Gasoline only -- Fuel air ratios from 10.5:1 -- to 8.6:1 MEP ranged from 260 to 263 lbs/sq inch

WI at .2 x fuel -- Fuel air ratios of 12.5:1 MEP=260 psi at FAR 10.4:1 MEP reached 298 . That is a 13% increase in power.

WI at .4 x fuel -- Fuel air ratios of 14.8:1 MEP = 260 psi at FAR 12.9:1 MEP reached max of 312 psi or 18.6% power increase.

These at 27 - 30 psi boost.

If you look at the AFR that all three could run at, of 12.9:1 the increase in MEP achieved at that AFR jumped from 194 psi to 312 psi or a total power increase of about 61%.

That implies if you can make 400 hp on a 12.9:1 FAR with WI you can get up near 640 hp. (if of course you have the turbo etc to run the necessary 30 psi boost).


Bottom line most tuners are not even scratching the surface of WI's or AI's potential.

Larry
hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2005, 09:59 AM   #14
dudical26
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37934
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Northern NJ
Default

Is it possible to run both WI and Race Gas. What would be the result?
dudical26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2005, 10:39 AM   #15
Jon [in CT]
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 2992
Join Date: Nov 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut, USA
Vehicle:
02 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

C16 will require periodic replacement of the A/F sensor - not a cheap part.
Jon [in CT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2005, 10:42 AM   #16
RiftsWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6124
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Glendale Hts, IL, USA
Vehicle:
2000 NFR AP1 S2000
'07 Honda FIT sport (5MT)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudical26
Is it possible to run both WI and Race Gas. What would be the result?
Well.... with a turbo capable of producing the airflows that would push the limits of a quality leaded race fuel, then it would extend those limits.

But on 350-500WHP turbo's, C16 laughs at me when I throw stuff at it. (13.6:1, and all the timing you could want, where you know you're clearly not making any more power on the dyno)

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
RiftsWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2005, 11:32 AM   #17
TheMadScientist
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23717
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Beverly, MA
Vehicle:
2005 Big red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
Well.... with a turbo capable of producing the airflows that would push the limits of a quality leaded race fuel, then it would extend those limits.

But on 350-500WHP turbo's, C16 laughs at me when I throw stuff at it. (13.6:1, and all the timing you could want, where you know you're clearly not making any more power on the dyno)

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
Wouldn't the WI reduce the charge temp? That would equate to a denser charge wich would make more power than C16 alone.

TMS
TheMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2005, 01:01 PM   #18
RiftsWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6124
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Glendale Hts, IL, USA
Vehicle:
2000 NFR AP1 S2000
'07 Honda FIT sport (5MT)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
Wouldn't the WI reduce the charge temp? That would equate to a denser charge wich would make more power than C16 alone.

TMS
Interesting spin, I can see that. Touche. But that be more a matter of W/I not so much alchy injection, or even a mix.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
RiftsWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2005, 01:17 PM   #19
TheMadScientist
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23717
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Beverly, MA
Vehicle:
2005 Big red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
Interesting spin, I can see that. Touche. But that be more a matter of W/I not so much alchy injection, or even a mix.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
Even with 100% alchy or a mix some evaporation is going to happen. When the injected fluid evaporates it will cool the charge. The amount of cooling will vary with the mix. I guess that 100% water will cool the best but you will get some with the alchy. Wouldn't you?
I will say the same thing about the water/alchy injection that you said about C16. It is amazing how lean you can go with crazy advance.

TMS
TheMadScientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
555 Motorsports Pre-Shootout Tuning June 9-12 -Free Race Gas Tune Inside!!! Benchmark Tuning MWSOC Vendor Classifieds 25 06-13-2009 01:46 AM
Tuning for /water injection 06rexwagon Commercial ECU Reflashes 21 05-05-2007 10:04 AM
Nitrous vs. Water Injection ScreaminFast Water/Methanol Injection, Nitrous & Intercooler Cooling 13 07-20-2004 05:02 PM
C16 vs. Sunoco 104+toluene vs. water injection annointed Proven Power Bragging 8 03-09-2004 08:30 AM
Race gas tuning question. davidm_sh Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 2 08-20-2002 02:25 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.