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Old 07-30-2003, 12:24 PM   #1
Jonathan1
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Default all season or high performance for OBS?

I would like suggestions on what tires to put on my MY98 RS Gold 16" rims for my N/A 99 OBS used as a daily driver.

I live in Santa Fe, and drive back and forth from New Mexico to California about once a month, 1000 miles each way. Ride comfort is important, and treadlife too. Im currently burning up the Cooper Lifeliner's that came with the car. I hate them. The ride is very harsh, they dont hold dry curves very well, and are worthless in snow or wet.

For severe winters I have Nokian NRW's on separate rims, they go on in December and come off in March. These are used to drive up to the ski area several times a week. Other than occasional snow showers in town, the roads are usually dry, or dry by noon. The last few winters have been so mild that the Nokian's were hardly needed, and driving the Nokians on dry roads just chews them up around the edges, especially on twisting mountain roads like the High Road to Taos.

Im tempted to get an All-Season tire and not even bother putting the Nokians on. I mostly do lots of highway driving on cruise control, with occasional romps thru the mountains.

When I did the tirerack tire decision guide http://www.tirerack.com/tires/dg/Sel...akeAndYear.jsp it came back with the Bridgestone Turanza LS.

I then read this thread comparing the Bridgestone All Season 950, to the 750, http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=355591 where Luke suggests the Bridgestone 750 or the Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP and said "and you may want to look into a 225/50-16" for someone with lots of highway miles and no snow.

Im new to this and dont know what the difference is between a 205/55-16 and a 225/50-16, nor whether the 225 would work on my wagon without rubbing.

thanks for any help deciding
Jonathan
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Old 07-30-2003, 01:38 PM   #2
ha-evolution
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Don't go with all seasons tires unless you like compromised tires. They aren't particularly good in the dry nor the snow. Get a good set of summer tires like:

Bridgestone S03's (high-end of price range)
Kumho MX (mid-range)
Kumho 712 (low-end)
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:03 AM   #3
Jonathan1
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Default mileage is important

Thanks for the reply and suggestions

I get the impression the SO3 is a 10,000 mile treadlife... but I really dont know. I am interested in a 40,000 mile tire if possible.

more feedback invited

Jonathan
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Old 07-31-2003, 11:26 AM   #4
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With a treadwear of 220 I highly doubt that the S03 would only get 10,000 miles. I've had 200 treadwear tires last 25k plus.
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Old 07-31-2003, 11:30 AM   #5
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Check out this Tire Rack link:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/max.jsp



-Td
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:09 PM   #6
Jonathan1
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Default thank you!

this review is where I got the impression that the SO3 would not last much more than 10k

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....+Pole+Position
"The tech at the Bridgestone center said I was lucky to get 10,000 miles on the tires; theres no "real" warranty on these kinds of tires."

thanks for the link too, very helpful

still a bit confused, but getting closer to a decision

Jonathan
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Old 07-31-2003, 02:54 PM   #7
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S-03s will last more than 10,000 miles unless you go to the road course or auto-x often. Mine last me about 16,000 miles with about a dozen novice track days.

But in your original post, the first things you mention are "ride" and "treadwear". Summer tires like the S-03s are not about ride nor treadwear. Go with a all-season if those are important for you, something like the RE950.

-Ray
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Old 07-31-2003, 03:16 PM   #8
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I read the same thing at Tire Rack but discounted it for being anecdotal. I got more then 10k miles out of my Bridgestone RE010s which came on my Type R and the treadwear was 140.
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Old 07-31-2003, 04:21 PM   #9
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thank you folks!

great suggestions
I went to tirerack and found their cool comparison tool and it is really helpful, since I can sort on price, ride, tread life, or anything else necesary

I have a page link that compares several of the tires in this thread in case anyone is interested in the future

at the moment Im leaning towards the very inexpensive conti extreme contact
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compar...=4&sortValue=0

really appreciate the chance to brainstorm

btw, do 225/50-16 seem appropriate? or should I stay at 205/55-16 for a long distance and daily driver, the rims are MY98 RS Golds, I believe thats 16x7"

tx
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Old 07-31-2003, 04:44 PM   #10
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Many -01 RS owners have problem with rubbing with 225 tires. I don't know if the OBS have more clearance or not, but you might want to stick with 205/55, just to be safe. The wider tire will give you better dry-traction performance, but is that something you're really looking for?
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Old 07-31-2003, 06:16 PM   #11
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a couple of things .....

first of all I assumed we were talking about a WRX .... my bad .... 225's will not work on the '99 model Impreza or an Outback Sport you need to use 205/55-16 size.

Secondly .... I can wear out S-03's on my car in a couple of weeks so, I can easily see 10k-20k and they are gone

thirdly ... if longer tire life is you primary cancern you will have to sacrifice some performance to achieve that goal of 40k you mentioned

with that said it sounds like the 950 is a better choice for you than the 750 but, the performance differences are significant



tire search
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:12 PM   #12
Jonathan1
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Default great feedbac

I see the link to my tiresearch expired...

Im really not that performance oriented, Im even considering the Continental Extreme Contact...

heres the short list, in case it helps others, and btw Luke, you did good, I hijacked another thread and the guy you were talking too did want to go fast on the onramps, so I think the Firestone was the right call for him. We both do a couple thousand miles of hiway a month, but I just set cruise.

And, sometimes I go up to snow line above 10k feet, and then drive down to sea level... so the idea of one tire does all is of course attractive. In all fairness, I can see Im getting advice from folks with turbos on Sti's, and Wrx's. I have never even seen a track, I just like to cruise... I seldom speed, and when I push the car in the twisties, its only 2nd and 3rd gear. I do plan to change to an 18mm sway.


$105 Bridgestone Turanza LS-Z ride 9.1 tread life 380
Grand Touring All-Season
--
$117 Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP ride 8.4 tread life 340
Ultra High performance summer
---
$72 Continental ContiExtremeContact ride 8.8 tread life 400
Ultra High Performance All-Season
---
$139 Bridgestone Potenza S-03 ride 8 treadlife 220
max performance summer
---
$118 Bridgestone Potenza RE950 ride 8.3 tread life 400
High Performance All-Season

All that said, and adding that I do have a set of wheels with NRW's, have no idea what Im missing by never having driven anything but All-Seasons on this car... whats your call, ContiExContact, or something else?

very grateful, will report back so others may learn from my mistakes ::-)
Jonathan
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Old 07-31-2003, 09:18 PM   #13
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Ok then, just save yourself some dough and get these for $63 each:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....um=055VR6ES712

I had these on my GS-R and was very pleased with the performance for the price.
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:25 AM   #14
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sport + touring + all season +decent treadwear? thats tough. some of the max perf tires will ride quiet some of the time, but not always, & treadwear could be better. touring tend to lack grip and dont resist carcass distortion. conti's are especially popular on teutonic makes but are not that quiet (the g cars usually have heavy nvh insulation) what the conti's do seem to handle is the weight. treadwear a bit higher? i am curious how these new exteme contis are though. my comments above are based on the sport contacts. never heard of these. note the makes of the reviews. they lean to the luxo side more than nimble handling & are quiet irregardless of tire selection. ratings also tend to be higher before many reviews come in. but for that price, if the ratings are any where near that, then go for it. look at the price of your alternatives.

here's a few in the ball park:
$90 in stock size.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....el=SP+Sport+A2

$100
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....odel=AVS+dB+S2

$103
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....0+Asymmetrical

one more not listed on tire rack is toyo's FZ4

the firehawk & S-03 you have listed are unacceptable in snow.
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Old 08-01-2003, 10:50 AM   #15
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NRW's are all-seasons/ all-weather, I currently use them for my winter tires as well but they are superior to most all-season alternatives in wet and dry performance, its the reason I chose them as my winters because 75% of my winter driving is heading up to the resorts on a 4 hr highway trip almost always fully plowed. As for getting chewed up in my experience they seem to wear remarkably well better than most, I believe they have a really high tread wear rateing as well. Now dont get me wrong they dont compare to my summers, but when comparing them to the dreaded RE92's I found them superior in everywy a truely great all-season. They are also a very capable off-road tire, at least in sand where I do tons of driving (I live at the beach)
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Old 08-01-2003, 10:53 AM   #16
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from what you have said here is the short list in the order I would put them

205/55ZR16 MI PILOT SPORT AS 168.00
P205/55ZR16 DU SPORT 5000 103.00
205/55R16 BS POZ RE950 118.00
P205/55R16 CO EXTREME CONTACT 75.00
205/55HR16 BS POZ RE950 100.00
P205/55HR16 DU SP SPORT A2 SL 89.00
205/55R16 YO AVS DB S2 98.00

there are 2 different RE950's on this list .... 1 is "V" speed rated and the other is "H" rated


here's another tire search link for you
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:37 PM   #17
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I replaced my SO3's with the Conti Extreme's, as I wanted a good commute tire that had great hydroplane resistance and some capability off pavement. They fit this to the "T", very civilized and phenomenal on flooded freeways. They have decent dry grip, though there is a lot of tread squirm, howling, and turn-in is a little hacking. But it keeps me in-line with civilians about.

My wife had SP5000's on her ML, so not a direct comparison. The SP's were quiter and had better dry grip, but lacked the competence of the Conti offroad and on flooded freeways-albeit they were 275/55-17's.

The SO3's are truly awesome tires and, unless you are an idiot, you will never find the limits on the street. But they ride harshly, tramline, are noisy, and worthless offroad. They are a great track tire for wagons, however, once 50% of the tread has been worn off.
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Old 08-01-2003, 08:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: great feedbac

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan1
I see the link to my tiresearch expired...

Im really not that performance oriented, Im even considering the Continental Extreme Contact...

heres the short list, in case it helps others, and btw Luke, you did good, I hijacked another thread and the guy you were talking too did want to go fast on the onramps, so I think the Firestone was the right call for him. We both do a couple thousand miles of hiway a month, but I just set cruise.

And, sometimes I go up to snow line above 10k feet, and then drive down to sea level... so the idea of one tire does all is of course attractive. In all fairness, I can see Im getting advice from folks with turbos on Sti's, and Wrx's. I have never even seen a track, I just like to cruise... I seldom speed, and when I push the car in the twisties, its only 2nd and 3rd gear. I do plan to change to an 18mm sway.


$105 Bridgestone Turanza LS-Z ride 9.1 tread life 380
Grand Touring All-Season
--
$117 Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP ride 8.4 tread life 340
Ultra High performance summer
---
$72 Continental ContiExtremeContact ride 8.8 tread life 400
Ultra High Performance All-Season
---
$139 Bridgestone Potenza S-03 ride 8 treadlife 220
max performance summer
---
$118 Bridgestone Potenza RE950 ride 8.3 tread life 400
High Performance All-Season

All that said, and adding that I do have a set of wheels with NRW's, have no idea what Im missing by never having driven anything but All-Seasons on this car... whats your call, ContiExContact, or something else?

very grateful, will report back so others may learn from my mistakes ::-)
Jonathan
I second the choice on the Contis. I'll be purchasing a set for our '02 OBS soon.

You could also look at the Yokohama AVS db or the Yokohama Avid V4. I'll probably get the AVS db for my RS since its driven harder than our OBS. I too drive alot and look for a tire that I can get decent performance and get about 30k miles out of.

Best of luck,
Matt
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Old 08-02-2003, 11:22 AM   #19
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My thoughts on this. I say 205/55/16 for sure with your 99 OBS (had one loved her!) I did a lot of research on all season tires that are as good (yes really) as max performance summer tires. I concluded the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires are for me due to low weight (tire weight really matters!) good mileage and superior handling. My second choice, and the choice I recommend to you, is:
205/55R16 Yokahama AVS DB S2
These tires rate really well by all reviewers at the Tire Rack, they are cheap, they last well and are very quiet, plus they only weigh 22 pounds in 205/55/16 just like my Michelins! All other A/S tires weigh at least 3 - 5 pounds more per tire and that additional unsprung weight on your OBS will kill it's accleration (trust me I know this for fact). So if you have a lot of money get the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S and if you do not get the Yokahama AVS DB S2- those are the only A/S tires I would choose from.

And yes you can have an exceptional tire that performs nearly as good as the best maximum performance tire in an all season tire!

Best of luck to you!
Heather
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Old 08-03-2003, 01:39 AM   #20
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I like my Sumitomo HTR+'s they are great all seasons and have the grip on most summer tires. People like the Conti's also I might give them a try when the Sumo's ware out, just to try. You can get some good all seasons for under $100 each. 205 vs. 225 width is talked about to death but I like my 225-50-16 Sumo's. Got about 30k on them and will need new tires in about 5k so they last ok.
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Old 08-07-2003, 09:33 AM   #21
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I was ready to go with ContiExtremeContact tires when I started looking at spdusa.com, where Mike heartily recommends the Toyo Proxes SZ4.

Im about ready to order some for $89 apiece, in 205/50-16 at Mikes recommendation.

Anyone care to endorse or warn me off of the Toyo's?

Im inclined, from all Ive read, to skip the Yoko AVS DB S2. No doubt the Michellin is the best of the bunch, except for price.

Will report back when I have a test drive to report

very grateful for everyones input
thanks
Jonathan
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Old 08-07-2003, 11:11 AM   #22
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Why skip the Yokahama AVS Db A2? I recommended them highly and I have yet to read one neagative comment on them anywhere!

The Toyo FZ4, on the other hand, is riddled with crappy reviews. They are supposed to hydroplane like crazy in the rain and be very loud, almost unbareable.

Do more research!
Heather
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Old 08-07-2003, 01:54 PM   #23
Jonathan1
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Default Im taking a chance with Toyo SZ4 because...

Hi Heather,

you are correct, and thanks for taking the time to help me, the $98 Yoko db S2 has much better reviews than the $89 Toyo FZ4. the db S2 is also rated very high on the ride quality. Since I have winter tires and rims, Im emphasizing dry performance, and the db S2 is ranked lower than the ContiExtreme in that category.

the Yoko does gets better ratings for dry conditions and ride, than the $75 ContiExtremeContact.

this link favors the Yoko, and compares it to the Conti, and the PZero Nero
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...emeContact.jsp

PZero is not available for my MY98 RS 16" rim

Luke ranked the Conti higher than the Yoko, for my stated use, which includes driving to the ski area (I was debating not changing to my winter tires). I think he chose it because its wet performance is better than the Yoko. otoh, I do have winter tires, so if I move more toward dry performance, the Yoko db S2 is the better choice performancewise, than the $23 cheaper ContiExtreme.

Now, I do like to drive the twisties, mountain roads, but have never even seen a track, so my excursion into the "performance" arena has been coached by folks with turbos, which I dont have. But in any case, I found the possibility of experiencing perfomance gains from tires compelling. The site spdusa.com has very informative material on sway bars, tires, and other things. I am planning to install an 18mm sway on my 98OBS, as that site recommends, so I was interested in their strong recommendation of the $89 Toyo FZ4 as an alternative with better ride but still 80% of the grip of the $137 Toyo Proxes T1-S. Also, the FZ4 they recommend is the 205/50 profile instead of the stock 205/55, not many tires come in that 50 sidewall for my rim... I realize it will make for more performance, and less ride to drop profile, but Im curious to taste this thing called performance. Besides, theres a certain cool factor to low profile :-)

Price is a motivator for me, otherwise I would follow your lead to the $168 Michellins if I went towards an all season, however I do have winter tires, so can afford to look more towards dry perfomance. I get a "cheap" feeling from the brand Continental, so am considering going Toyo or Yoko as a compromise on price and quality.

I also considered the $78 Yoko ES100, but the importance of ride gives preference to the Yoko db S2. Im not sure how the FZ4 compares to the ES100, but I like the look of the FZ4 tread better, for my taste.

Im still debating my realistic needs, and budget. In order of price, the current contenders are the $75 ContiExtreme, the $89 Toyo FZ4, and the $98 Yoko db S2. Since I do have winter tires, and it almost never rains here, Im still on the fence about opting for a tire with more dry grip emphasis. otoh, I take a 2000 mile trip about once a month... ride.

So, to help finalize the decision, I got pictures of the contenders treadpattern, and to my eye, the Toyo T1-S and the Yoko ES 100 are too radical. The ContiExtreme looks like it would be squiggly, as tests bore out in the dry, the Yoko db S2 is highest on my price list so Im shying away a bit, plus its an all season, and Im mostly interested in dry performace, which is where the db s2 is weaker than the ContiEx, and finally, the Toyo FZ4 has a tread pattern, and a price, I like. Plus it introduces me to perfomance in the dry, which interests me, without giving up too much ride comfort (hopefully). So, the Toyo FZ4, gets the nod for my budget and dry performance emphasis. I will report back with a review.

thanks for everyone's help


Jonathan
ps, a link to an endorsement of the FZ4 http://www.spdusa.com/newpage8.htm ,
"This is always a compromise, but for many a necessary one. We have the excellent Toyo Proxes FZ4 build with as few compromises as necessary for a suitable M+S rating.

It is built on the Proxes T1 case with a different compound and tread pattern. John Norris, of GT International Racing, the West Region distributor of Toyo racing tires called it, "80% of the grip with 50% more mileage than the T1". Expect good ride, great turn-in feel and good grip from this tire with an expected tread life of 30,000+ miles. The tread is a very open "gatorback" design and is suitable for snow and wet conditions while providing a great driving experience with good economy.

and especially in 50 profile,
"We recommend 205/50-16 and 215/40-17 over the 205/55-16 and 215/45-17 sizes. WHY? Going to the shorter tires are the best free horse power you can get. Due to their %3.2-3.6 percent smaller diameter these tires give the car better overall gearing, noticeably brightening up third gear acceleration. The speedo is off 3-4 mph, but that will keep you from getting tickets anyway!

A tire trick I have discovered is that the 205/55-16 tires tend to be made for OEM specifications as there are so many cars with this size. The 205/50-16 is not an OEM tire and they tend to be a "better', that is to say, stiffer and more aggressive tire within the same model. It may say PZero on the 205/55 and 205/50, but they feel completely different. The best example is the 205/45-17 vs. the 205/50-17N2 PZero. The 205/45-17 was developed for Volvo and the_ 205/50N2 is a performance tire. The 45 series is quite, smooth riding and OK as a performance tire, while the 50 N2 series rides like a truck tire, is noisy and is a total blast to drive!"

Last edited by Jonathan1; 08-07-2003 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 08-08-2003, 10:40 AM   #24
Heather
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Looks like you did do your research! I agree, I really like the tread pattern on the Toyo FZ4's as well. I parked next to a car with them yesterday and I admired the way they looked.

One more thing though, you need to buy 225/50/16 and not 205/50/16. 225/50/16 is an exact match to the stock size and it will not throw-off you speedometer at all, whereas the 205/50/16 will. Ask Luke for confirmation on this point before you buy!

Have fun and I agree on the swaybar too- Makes a huge difference!

Heather
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Old 08-09-2003, 01:52 AM   #25
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Default 205 not 225

If you look at Luke's first post it says this, don't go with the 225s because they don't fit.

Although I understand you were just trying to get help, the process would have been greatly expedited for you had you mentioned that you have winter tires and that the rating of dry performance of the all-season's was really the key factor.

good luck with you decision.


PS: I too have heard people with problems with the toyo's in the snow.

Just to throw a curveball, I have Falken Ziex on my car in the same size and will end up with about 30,000 on them and they rocked in the snow. I live in snow country (central OR) and not a problem at all. similar price too

Jared
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