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Old 08-24-2005, 01:06 PM   #1
mpower22
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Default injection questions..smc kit..50/50 water denatured or 50/50 water methanol...discuss

smc kit....which option is more cost effective and most beneficial power wise? Plus I have hear that methanol is very corrosive? Whats the best way to go?
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Old 08-24-2005, 01:51 PM   #2
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Yes, it's been reported that methanol can corrode given enough time. It's also a PITA to source IMHO. From the reading I've done most have opted for a 50/50 denatured alcohol/distilled water blend. Straight denatured is flammable enough to warrant second thoughts (as you'd have a gallon +/- right next to the engine) whereas a blend will be less likely to erupt in a fireball if you developed a leak (extremely unlikely from my research, but a concern all the same). I'm 98% sure that straight methanol would give a fairly considerable gain over a denatured/water blend, but can't back that up with #'s.
I'm having the SMC kit installed as we speak, and chose 50/50 denatured/distilled. HTH.
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpower22
smc kit....which option is more cost effective and most beneficial power wise? Plus I have hear that methanol is very corrosive? Whats the best way to go?
i have the smc kit on my car and run straight ethanol (denatured alcohol). steve at smc recommends this although there is nothing wrong with running methanol or 50/50 mix. yes methanol is very corrosive and it can gel. if you do a search on the web for alcohol, methanol and water injection. you can find articles from people including hot rod enthusiasts that have been using this stuff for quite a long time. ethanol costs me about $10/gal and currently lasts me for a month or two. when i first got the kit installed, i burned up the whole gallon before my 2nd tank of gas was empty.
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerleak
i have the smc kit on my car and run straight ethanol (denatured alcohol). steve at smc recommends this although there is nothing wrong with running methanol or 50/50 mix. yes methanol is very corrosive and it can gel. if you do a search on the web for alcohol, methanol and water injection. you can find articles from people including hot rod enthusiasts that have been using this stuff for quite a long time. ethanol costs me about $10/gal and currently lasts me for a month or two. when i first got the kit installed, i burned up the whole gallon before my 2nd tank of gas was empty.



cool but is there any information that running strait denatured leads to x while runiing a 50/50 leads to y? I'm trying to do a cost benefit and need to know these factors...is running strait denatured worth the extra cost or will it only yield an extra 5 hp and cost twice as much?

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Old 08-24-2005, 02:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpower22
cool but is there any information that running strait denatured leads to x while runiing a 50/50 leads to y? I'm trying to do a cost benefit and need to know these factors...is running strait denatured worth the extra cost or will it only yield an extra 5 hp and cost twice as much?

Matt
On your turbo and setup, run 50/50.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
On your turbo and setup, run 50/50.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com


yes sir....now to talk sean at exteme into buying a 55 gallon jug and doing a group sell
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
On your turbo and setup, run 50/50.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
what benefits have you noticed for the 50/50 mix vs straight ethanol or methanol? you have me curious since even steve at smc says he runs just straight ethanol...
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpower22
yes sir....now to talk sean at exteme into buying a 55 gallon jug and doing a group sell
He just installed a kit on a customer evo. I saw a gallon can of Ace denatured there, but if he starts setting up more evos with it, there is the possibility. You should be able to find it in bulk at some other chemical stores though, and probably cheaper.

Jorge could also give you a map for 50/50 and one for 100% denatured. It's not like you have to empty the fuel tank to go from one setup to the other.

And BTW, you've got me looking at alky injection, bastid!

Frank
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:32 PM   #9
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E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% regular gas. How about a 60/40 mix of E85/distilled water for alky injection?

You can get that at a couple pumps in MD:
http://www.e85fuel.com/database/loca...ate=mdMaryland

Frank
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry
E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% regular gas. How about a 60/40 mix of E85/distilled water for alky injection?

You can get that at a couple pumps in MD:
http://www.e85fuel.com/database/loca...ate=mdMaryland

Frank


I just pm'd you..I have a favor to ask...can I get your contact info again?

Matt
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry
E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% regular gas. How about a 60/40 mix of E85/distilled water for alky injection?

You can get that at a couple pumps in MD:
http://www.e85fuel.com/database/loca...ate=mdMaryland

Frank
you might as well just fill up with e85 completely and have your car tuned for it instead. "hot rod" started a nice thread regarding it, you could find his old post on it.
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerleak
what benefits have you noticed for the 50/50 mix vs straight ethanol or methanol? you have me curious since even steve at smc says he runs just straight ethanol...
The only reason I do it is to avert the fireball waiting to happen in the car that carries my 11 month old son in it as well.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiftsWRX
The only reason I do it is to avert the fireball waiting to happen in the car that carries my 11 month old son in it as well.

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com

laughs considering my car was just about a fireball on the dyno two weeks ago ..I'll take your advice Jorge.....
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Old 08-24-2005, 03:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerleak
you might as well just fill up with e85 completely and have your car tuned for it instead. "hot rod" started a nice thread regarding it, you could find his old post on it.
I don't want to drive to the 3 locations that sell it in my state every time I need to fill up.

Frank
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry
I don't want to drive to the 3 locations that sell it in my state every time I need to fill up.

Frank

well I'm trying to go halfsies with extreme on a 55 gallon....it would be pretty cheap...IF you are getting an alchy kit...... you know you want to...I'm working with stseve at SMC..trying to get him to become a vender and do a group by....I'm actually talking to him about some sponsorship stuff.....


Matt
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Old 08-24-2005, 04:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpower22
well I'm trying to go halfsies with extreme on a 55 gallon....it would be pretty cheap...IF you are getting an alchy kit...... you know you want to...I'm working with stseve at SMC..trying to get him to become a vender and do a group by....I'm actually talking to him about some sponsorship stuff.....


Matt
55 gallon drum of denatured alky? Just put it in your trunk and run the lines directly.

I noticed Jorge made almost the exact same comment regarding E85 and alky injection in hotrods thread.

Frank
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Old 08-24-2005, 05:56 PM   #17
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I had my kit installed, but I haven't been tuned yet because of a bad controller. I ultimately decided on a 50/50 mix for two reasons: a) the fire hazard of one gallon of pure ethanol under the hood (anyone who has ever lit grain alcohol ablaze knows what I am talking about) and b) the water is magic for bringing down combustion chamber temps (since it is not a fuel). Since water is not a fuel, I am guessing the power advantage is to straight ethanol, but with water you get the safety margin and a steam clean
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Old 08-24-2005, 06:42 PM   #18
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water is a product of ethanol burning... you'll get the steam clean affect regardless
if you guys are really scared about the alcohol under the hood, why don't you just convert the intercooler sprayer tank to hold it instead or get a better sealed container. if i get into an accident that causes the tank to rupture and spill in the engine bay. i'll be lucky to walkaway from it and i won't be worrying about my car burning down

nix - p.s. steve has your controller in the mail.
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerleak
water is a product of ethanol burning... you'll get the steam clean affect regardless
if you guys are really scared about the alcohol under the hood, why don't you just convert the intercooler sprayer tank to hold it instead or get a better sealed container. if i get into an accident that causes the tank to rupture and spill in the engine bay. i'll be lucky to walkaway from it and i won't be worrying about my car burning down

nix - p.s. steve has your controller in the mail.
Didn't know that you knew him! He has been supremely helpful and prompt with me which makes me care less that the unit didn't work initially. He is doing a little custom work for me on the unit...pics in two weeks when I get it installed.

Also, even though water is a by-product (thus the nice cleaning), you will not get the heat absorption of evaporating liquid water in the combustion chamber (since I think the water produced by burning alcohol will already be vapor - and hot vapor at that)

Last edited by Nixlimited; 08-24-2005 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 08-25-2005, 12:12 AM   #20
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I am working on getting a spec C water caontainer and using it for alcohol. But it has been very hard to source one. Most vendors are like I can get you one in 6 weeks.

Nick
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:05 AM   #21
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can a 50/50 mix of denatured/water freeze in the winter?
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:11 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpower22
can a 50/50 mix of denatured/water freeze in the winter?
Will vodka? Same thing.

TMS
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:14 AM   #23
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Will vodka? Same thing.

TMS

makes ense I guess it would have to get real cold....

I'm just confused on using a mix of water and denatured or water and meth....
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadScientist
Will vodka? Same thing.

TMS
DING DING DING
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:23 AM   #25
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Pure ethanol has a melting point of -144*C. I am not sure of how you would calculate the melting point for a mix. Is it a straight ratio?
Melting point and freeze point are the same thing.

TMS
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