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Old 08-26-2005, 02:50 PM   #1
FromEvoToRS37
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Default header question

ok I feel sorta stupid for askin this question but if I wanna be knowledgeable I hafta ask sometime, what are the benefits or pros/cons of header length being equal versuss unequal
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Old 08-26-2005, 03:47 PM   #2
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anyone know?
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Old 08-26-2005, 04:07 PM   #3
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Equal (Cobb or TWE)
More power than an unequal
Costs much more
Loses 'boxer' sound. Personally I'm not a fan of the sound.

Unequal (Borla)
Cheaper
Sounds great (enhances the 'boxer' sound)
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Old 08-26-2005, 04:49 PM   #4
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Someone said you don't completely lose the boxer sound, its just alot less noticable. I would go with borla though because i like the boxer sound ALOT
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Old 08-26-2005, 05:07 PM   #5
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borlas are a waste of money...sound mod only, minimal gains.

If you want a set of equal length headers that maintains the boxer sound, try to find a set of brullens...deep, throaty...pure sex

I agree, the cobbs sound like crap.
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Old 08-26-2005, 05:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butter
borlas are a waste of money...sound mod only, minimal gains.

If you want a set of equal length headers that maintains the boxer sound, try to find a set of brullens...deep, throaty...pure sex

I agree, the cobbs sound like crap.
It's funny that a lot of people claim that Borlas are a sound mod, but I don't now of any dyno runs that support that claim. Time to do a search...

Edit:

According to "TWE, Borla makes 6.5lb ft of torque@ the wheels(we dyno tested), and 2whp.on an otherwise stock car." If you outfit the headers with a high flow cat, who knows what the real gains will be.

There is no question that TWE/Cobb/Brullen/MRT header designs make more power. At the time I purchased my Borlas, I was looking for a single exhaust piece less than $300, not a $700-800+ set that could possibly not fit due to my 4EAT.

Last edited by DrBoy01; 08-26-2005 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 08-26-2005, 05:30 PM   #7
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Borlas and its unequal length nockoffs are better at producing low end torque than making upper band hp. Yeah they enhance the sound, but they're alright if you just daily drive.

Equal length headers do tend to lose the "boxer" sound. Instead, the pulses from the firing order, become closer together and sound like an inline (aka Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.) However, that said it does still sound a little different than a regular inline, probably due the firing order. This give upper band hp and good mid trq. Also most have been shown to increase low end too.

So in the end ~$300 for sound/low trq or ~$700+ for power. To each his own
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Old 08-26-2005, 05:41 PM   #8
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brullens, no longer here...gluck finding some.

Borla, however, is not a waste of money. The Borla helps with the lower end, as the TWE/Cobb will help you in the topend. The gains, however, are much better with the TWE and Cobb, but you're also paying much more than you would with the Borla.
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:09 PM   #9
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I'm happy w/ Borla. I like the sound and I've noticed a decent improvement in low end. Mines a daily driver I don't race so it suits me fine. How can one not be a fan of the Boxer sound?
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:32 PM   #10
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I'm glad i didnt have to start a thread about headers. Its brought up enough but still i couldnt find any info in a search i just did.

Question.

Does anyone know how much of a difference between HP numbers for TWE and Cobb.

I like the the collecter design and stainless approach of the TWE and the Cobb looks like it might be a better fit but not stainless.(and thats a bummer)

I am seriously starting to revamp my car so i need some sound advise. Both companies have a good reputation, but i need a real desicion breaker here.


TIA
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Old 08-27-2005, 05:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman12321
brullens, no longer here...gluck finding some.

Borla, however, is not a waste of money. The Borla helps with the lower end, as the TWE/Cobb will help you in the topend. The gains, however, are much better with the TWE and Cobb, but you're also paying much more than you would with the Borla.
yea, i just installed my brullens a few months ago and they kick ass...def the best of the EL headers...too bad you can't get em anymore.

when i say borlas are a sound mod, they do add some power, but for a little bit extra cash, the EL headers make a ton more.If you are trying to get the most out of our engines, spending cash on borlas is a waste (at least for me)
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Old 08-27-2005, 08:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butter
yea, i just installed my brullens a few months ago and they kick ass...def the best of the EL headers...too bad you can't get em anymore.

when i say borlas are a sound mod, they do add some power, but for a little bit extra cash, the EL headers make a ton more.If you are trying to get the most out of our engines, spending cash on borlas is a waste (at least for me)

Not that the brullen headers are bad or anything, but what is it exactly that makes them the best out of all the eq headers? Have you tried all of the eq headers that are avaliable for our cars? If you have, then you have quite a bit of money to blow on headers and various mods.

Me on the other hand I went with TWE eq headers. I did a lot of research on all headers before I laid down my hard earned money for these babies. Overall after doing all of my research I came to the conclusion that the TWE headers had the nicest merge collector, the best craftsmenship, and made power in every point in the power band. The other nice thing about TWE is that the headers end in the stock location. This means that since I didn't have the cash for a new hiflow cat that I could put that off and still have my headers. You can't do that with the Cobb, Brullen, MRT headers. You have to run a custom cat section because none of them end in the stock location. This means that you do have to spend that 900-1K for headers and a cat.

I figure for what I paid for my headers, and what I'm going to pay for my cat here in a few days. I would have gotten everything for 925. That includes all shipping charges, and I saved money because I installed it all. So over all not too bad for a nice set of headers and a hiflow cat.
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Old 08-27-2005, 10:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butter
yea, i just installed my brullens a few months ago and they kick ass...def the best of the EL headers...too bad you can't get em anymore.

when i say borlas are a sound mod, they do add some power, but for a little bit extra cash, the EL headers make a ton more.If you are trying to get the most out of our engines, spending cash on borlas is a waste (at least for me)
a little bit?
For manual transmissions, we are talking about $948 if you were to go with TWE, whereas the Borla's new cost $300. I dont quite consider $600+ just a little bit. With that money, you can buy an intake with Rallitek's PP. I think we can all agree however that the Borla's give excellent sound, with miminal gains, whereas the EL headers give much better gains, however you truly lose alot of the 'boxer' sound. Each has their pros and cons.
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Old 08-27-2005, 05:31 PM   #14
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ok...im a little biased, because i have the brullens, BUT...Im assuming all EL headers give similar gains, so it's just down to build quality, material, and sound.

I personally think COBBs sound bad, and they are made of mild steel, so that's no good.

TWEs are nice, but I'm not a fan of the sound, and I hear their shape makes them drag a little lower than the other ELs (but I haven't seen them on a car, so I'm not sure about that).

Brullens are stainless, sound nice, and fit nice under the car.

As for price, I got a perfect set of brullens for $550Cdn including hi flow cat, custom midpipe and magnaflow muffler. They usually pop up in the Private for sale section for a little more than that ($700-$900Cdn for full header-back), but not that much more than a new set of borlas.
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Old 08-27-2005, 11:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butter
ok...im a little biased, because i have the brullens, BUT...Im assuming all EL headers give similar gains, so it's just down to build quality, material, and sound.

I personally think COBBs sound bad, and they are made of mild steel, so that's no good.

TWEs are nice, but I'm not a fan of the sound, and I hear their shape makes them drag a little lower than the other ELs (but I haven't seen them on a car, so I'm not sure about that).

Brullens are stainless, sound nice, and fit nice under the car.

As for price, I got a perfect set of brullens for $550Cdn including hi flow cat, custom midpipe and magnaflow muffler. They usually pop up in the Private for sale section for a little more than that ($700-$900Cdn for full header-back), but not that much more than a new set of borlas.
Sounds like you got a killer deal on those headers. The TWE's are very nice indeed. Like I said, the build quality is top notch. I personally don't think they sit that low. More than anything it's people just blowing stuff way out of perportion. You would be more than okay running around town, going to the track, and running auto-x with these headers with lower suspension, but I wouldn't go out and run around in any dirt or over any rocks with them. Then again I wouldn't really do that anyway. As far as sound goes. Yeah they don't sound like the borlas, but I'm looking for more power not a sound. The sound isn't even that bad on them. I think it sounds great. The TWE and the Brullens sound very nice, and IMO almost the same. The Cobbs on the other hand sound like ass, but you can't argue with the gains they make.
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Old 08-28-2005, 12:16 AM   #16
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Seeing as people are really concerned with the sound of thier exhaust (and they have a right to be) when using an equal length setup is it possible to regain some of the boxer-esque sound by adding an additional resonator or header muffler (something like a Borla XR-1 header muffler) so in some cases having 2 resonators in the mid-pipe.? Obviously these would be a straight through design (like the xr-1) so the flow shouldnt change that much but yet maybe improve the sound.


The reason i bring up that particular header muffler is because i have one. I am going to be moving into an equal length system soon and thought of incorporating it instead of a cat. (i dont need it where its registered)

Seems like a good idea but for me thats as far as it goes at this point. I need to finalize my decision on the header i'm buying first. You guys arent making it easy for me either. Seems like one has something the other doesnt and vice versa.
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Old 08-28-2005, 01:58 AM   #17
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So unequal length headers are much more expensive but have more potential for higher gains overall, whereas the equal length headers are cheaper and give you SOME gains in the low end but not as much potential for higher gains overall. Is that the concensus?
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:01 AM   #18
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sounds like unequal header keeps the sound and is cheaper and adds "some" power and equal header adds more power and less boxer sound, hmm I'm into the more power, I'm curious to hear the sounds of an equal header and unequal header anyone know where to hear sound clips, I'm interested in knowin if its really that big of a difference in sound between the equal length header and unequal length header cause I love the sound of the sti's runnin around with their exhausts, I wanna make my car sound like that tho if I'm gettin a header I want the best performance so it's a tough choice, sound vs power, dependin on how much power also anyone know why exactly the equal length header makes more power for the car than an unequal length what is it about the gasses collectin at the same time or at whatever
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:04 AM   #19
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^^^ What he said
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Old 08-28-2005, 07:44 AM   #20
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you won't ever sound like an STI unless you stick a turbo under your hood. its unfortunate, but its true.

i have brullen headers and i don't really get how you guys think they sound so good... they're really raspy from outside, it's a thin walled construction that lets alot of harsh metallic valve noise out... so much that i wrapped the collector section JUST to muffle that annoying SSSHHHHH sound when decelerating above 3000rpm. when accellerating above 3000 it's also pretty loud, but that could be attributed to other sections of my exhaust. the build quality is not the greatest either, and i think the guy that designed the collector merge sections was inhaling too much welding fumes. however, i got the headers, cat, and tanabe catback for $500cdn so i can't really complain.

i've been considering replacing the brullen with a cobb or TWE mainly because the passenger side primaries come SO close to the oil filter it boils the oil, I've had this oil temperature problem at the track now since these headers went on (1year+) and i'm sure it's because of the proximity of those pipes to the filter. it's so close i don't think i'd be able to wrap the header there without it touching.

realistically before i replace my headers with new ones i'm going to replace the motor, and all will be solved. if i did do a change however, i'm pretty sure i'd get Cobb because i don't have a clue where i'd get TWE locally in Toronto.

Last edited by tmeh; 08-28-2005 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 08-28-2005, 10:46 AM   #21
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This is taken from ---Howstuffworks.com----enjoy----

The idea behind an exhaust header is to eliminate the manifold's back pressure. Instead of a common manifold that all of the cylinders share, each cylinder gets its own exhaust pipe. These pipes come together in a larger pipe called the collector. The individual pipes are cut and bent so that each one is the same length as the others. By making them the same length, it guarantees that each cylinder's exhaust gases arrive in the collector spaced out equally so there is no back pressure generated by the cylinders sharing the collector.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me, I am starting to opt for the COBB. I really want stainless but its not a show car and for the price the little bit of gain i would get from the TWE (over COBB) isnt really worth all the extra cost.

I am actaully leaning more towards an entire COBB system header and back. I just wish i had the resources to hear one in person.

Last edited by dntouch; 08-28-2005 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 08-28-2005, 12:20 PM   #22
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So then equal length headers would be much better for turbos because you want to eliminate back pressure. What about N/A engines? Doesn't back pressure help with low end torque? So would unequal length headers be better if you were running an N/A engine?
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Old 08-28-2005, 03:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmeh
you won't ever sound like an STI unless you stick a turbo under your hood. its unfortunate, but its true.

i've been considering replacing the brullen with a cobb or TWE mainly because the passenger side primaries come SO close to the oil filter it boils the oil, I've had this oil temperature problem at the track now since these headers went on (1year+) and i'm sure it's because of the proximity of those pipes to the filter. it's so close i don't think i'd be able to wrap the header there without it touching.

realistically before i replace my headers with new ones i'm going to replace the motor, and all will be solved. if i did do a change however, i'm pretty sure i'd get Cobb because i don't have a clue where i'd get TWE locally in Toronto.
You consider sending the headers to swaintech for a coating? I saw a review of a borla that someone got coated, and the person was saying it did such a good job of keeping the heat in you could touch the header and not get burned

Swaintech coating on i-club

Maybe that's another option.

Last edited by mrpedal; 08-28-2005 at 10:43 PM. Reason: Ok, so my iclub link gets auto-converted to a nasioc thread??! bizzare. Tinyurl'd it
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Old 08-28-2005, 04:03 PM   #24
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omg no

'backpressure' is bad for everyone. think potato in the tailpipe.

scavenging is the word you should use to describe exhaust flow attributes

when pipes are too big the hot gas gets cool, turbulent, and slows down and kills the flow out the tailpipe. proper exhaust design has the best scavenging and the flow is clean out the back. whether this means smaller pipes, thicker material, using header wrap, or lengths of various sizes of pipe depends on application.


i'm sure there is a huge writeup about all this available on this site
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Old 08-28-2005, 04:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpedal
You consider sending the headers to swaintech for a coating? I saw a review of a borla that someone got coated, and the person was saying it did such a good job of keeping the heat in you could touch the header and not get burned

http://www.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1150012

Maybe that's another option.

the headers are coated already, maybe that Swaintech coating is really super thick and would do something but the wrap did as good a job at muffling as i could hope for. i'd think it'd be pretty expensive for me to ship headers anywhere to get them worked on, if it came to that i'd just buy the Cobb setup

and, if that coating was so good that you could touch it, the metal that makes up the actual header would quickly desintegrate and you wouldn't have much left but a coating and no steel...

i'm not sure why you linked a thread about tint.
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