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Old 09-02-2005, 09:43 PM   #1
nightdesigns
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Default Is HP measured off of the engine or at the wheels?

My old car had 10 more HP than the subaru and it would smoke this thing. Where is the HP measured?
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:14 PM   #2
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Manufacturers measure it at the flywheel unless noted as wheel HP. Bigger numbers that way.
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:38 PM   #3
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um, what was your old car? weight? final drive, fwd, rwd? etc, etc....

you realize overall hp measurement is only a small part of the performance equation.

Ben
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:53 PM   #4
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according to manufacturers, at the crank, in general, depends on the dyno, if it is a dyno, its wheels and the crank is the estimate.
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Old 09-03-2005, 01:51 AM   #5
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You don't mention what you drive (or even your previous car) but you have to take into account all wheel drive and a potentially heavy car. Legacy is a heavy car and basically a passenger car compared to others. Also, HP numbers are for marketing, nor real world.
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Old 09-03-2005, 02:00 AM   #6
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It goes even further to say that the power curve makes a big difference as well. Max torque at 1900RPM versus 3700RPM means a lot in the low end. The S2000's initial engine had heaps of power for a tiny engine... after the cams kicked in. Up to 5500RPM, it had the same balls as a base Cavalier of the same era.

I remember reading a review of a Lamborghini where it pulled an insane 0-100kmh time, mostly because it maxes out in first gear there... no shift saves time!
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Old 09-03-2005, 03:35 AM   #7
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So is my 165 HP at the crank or wheels? My guess would be crank, cause my car is slow.
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Old 09-03-2005, 03:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooberdoob
according to manufacturers, at the crank, in general, depends on the dyno, if it is a dyno, its wheels and the crank is the estimate.
There's no "in general" about it. Engine ratings from the auto manufacturers are crank HP numbers, for every brand, in every country. They are determined in accordance with SAE procedures (that have just recently been revised, which is why the Camry suddenly went from an advertised 210hp to just 190hp, for instance).

Pat Olsen
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Old 09-03-2005, 04:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen
There's no "in general" about it. Engine ratings from the auto manufacturers are crank HP numbers, for every brand, in every country. They are determined in accordance with SAE procedures (that have just recently been revised, which is why the Camry suddenly went from an advertised 210hp to just 190hp, for instance).

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Patrick, you are wrong on this account. In Japan it is common practice for manufacturers to give false, or WHP numbers for cars in the 280hp vicinity due to the law not allowing cars to exceed that. If you take a 22B, Skyline GT-R, Supra etc etc that all claim 280hp they have DEFINITELY more than 280hp at the crank. I've seen stock Skyline GT-R's (R33 and R34) pull close to 280 at the wheels.
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Old 09-03-2005, 04:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tora
Patrick, you are wrong on this account. In Japan it is common practice for manufacturers to give false, or WHP numbers for cars in the 280hp vicinity due to the law not allowing cars to exceed that. If you take a 22B, Skyline GT-R, Supra etc etc that all claim 280hp they have DEFINITELY more than 280hp at the crank. I've seen stock Skyline GT-R's (R33 and R34) pull close to 280 at the wheels.
Well, fudging numbers is fudging numbers, so that makes how the number was determined a moot point. It may be I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to bet you can't find me a manufacturer's ad or spec for one of those cars that says WHP. And the Japanese aren't the only ones guilty of fudging numbers. The LT4/LS1 Z28 SSs were advertised as 320bhp, but bone stock cars usually dyno'd in the 300whp ballpark. Basically, Chevy didn't want to advertise the SS having essentially the same power as the "flagship" Corvette, so the SS was rated a bit pessimistically. The SRT-4 also seems to be pretty under-rated, from the various dyno tests I've seen.

I was wrong to say everyone uses the SAE test. To be more specific, all cars sold here in America are rated using the SAE testing methodology, but in the home markets they may be slightly different. Japan uses PS, very similar to our BHP, but I think it's off like 1% or something like that. Clearly, if the Japanese automakers were measuring power at the wheels, the difference between PS and BHP would be much larger than that. I think DIN is what the Germans use, not sure if that's Europe wide or not.

Pat
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Old 09-03-2005, 04:48 AM   #11
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Now lets discuss what we find when we put our cars on a Dyno. I am extremely non-technical, I have been consuming all the information avalable on this and other Suby boards for the last 9 months.

A major issue which I have come to understand is that all Dyno's read different. It is claimed that the Mustang Dyno is always known to report the lowest numbers. As Matt Monson preaches in the NA forum, numbers can only be realistically compared if you have before and after numbers from the same dyno. From my experience consuming all information available to me from Suby boards this is regarded as true. And no one ever comes close to the manufacturers numbers.

So the only thing to go on is what you can run.
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:23 AM   #12
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You can read threads for days on how dyno’s calculate hp or torque and the differences between, but as you mentioned it seems there are some good dyno baselines across the different manufactures.

Mustang dyno’s indeed seem to present the lowest of numbers, whether it’s due to a difference in power calculation from the others, who knows. The bottom line is good numbers on a Mustang dyno are superior to those equivalent numbers found on say a Dynojet, which is rated as the higher reading dyno.

Often this is referred to as “East Coast Dyno” which I find pretty comical. I guess the premise here is that commercial retail space (dyno shop) is at a higher premium then on the west-coast therefore east-coast shops often resort to the smaller and more portable Dynojet style dyno.

My boosted Legacy reads 256whp/240ft-lb on the higher reading Dynojet system. I have yet to get “second opinion” from a Mustang style system which would provide a good comparison. Stock WRX’s (i.e. 227 crank hp) read around 175whp on a Dynojet, even lower on a Mustang.

Anybody know what the 05' LGT's dyno stock?
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:58 AM   #13
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I think I read it in Car and Driver that the 05 on a mustang dyno is 190whp. Car and Driver also said that when they drove it it felt alot slower than 190whp because its so heavy. But all that can be fixed with an exhaust and STI ECU.

I have a 95 legacy with the 2.2, Subaru says 135hp, to that I say BS. I had my car dyno'd on a dynojet when I bought it just to see what it started it at to compare when I'm done. I had 90hp at the wheels. After a few things done (headers, exhaust, intake and pulleys) I now have 120hp at the wheels. WRX swap is coming soon, hopefully a stage 2 soon after that so more to come in the numbers department.
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Old 09-08-2005, 11:13 PM   #14
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It is at the crank.

For AWD - drivetrain loss is 22%, so you probably have just under 130 at the wheel.

FWD drivetrain loss is ~ 15%.

NA legacies are slow. They are heavy (in part due to AWD), and have a lot of drive train loss. All that inertia to overcome just makes the cars awfully sluggish!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aken
So is my 165 HP at the crank or wheels? My guess would be crank, cause my car is slow.
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Old 09-09-2005, 12:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75
Often this is referred to as “East Coast Dyno” which I find pretty comical. I guess the premise here is that commercial retail space (dyno shop) is at a higher premium then on the west-coast therefore east-coast shops often resort to the smaller and more portable Dynojet style dyno.
I don't know what the Mustang dyno looks like, but a Dynojet is an in-floor dyno with a huge roller (or rollers, for the AWD type). Not at all portable or small. I can't say I've ever heard of the Dynojet (or any other dyno, for that matter) being referred to as an "East Coast dyno". I'm about 99% positive that the East Coast (specifically, Adrenalin Motorsport in Massachusetts) had a Dyno Dynamics Low Boy dyno before anywhere else in the country, so why isn't the DD called the "East Coast dyno"? Comical indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mx5racer
For AWD - drivetrain loss is 22%, so you probably have just under 130 at the wheel.

FWD drivetrain loss is ~ 15%.
(a) Those are arbitrary numbers that will (as repeated a million times on this site in various dyno threads) vary from dyno to dyno, and (b) even assuming they were correct numbers, I'm not sure how one goes from 90whp to 130bhp using 22%.

Missed this earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverDog
Manufacturers measure it at the flywheel unless noted as wheel HP. Bigger numbers that way.
Actually, it has nothing to do with bigger numbers and everything to do with controllable repeatability. An engine dyno already has a bunch of variables that must be accounted for (hence the SAE testing procedures). A chassis dyno introduces even more variables - tire pressures, drivetrain fluids, tire sizes, rates of acceleration on the dyno, dyno type (inertia vs. load bearing), roller diameters and weights, etc etc - in addition to all the ones that affect an engine dyno. It's just a lot easier to try to get repeatable numbers that can be compared from one manufacturer to the next by using engine dyno numbers.

Pat
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Old 09-09-2005, 07:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen
I don't know what the Mustang dyno looks like, but a Dynojet is an in-floor dyno with a huge roller (or rollers, for the AWD type). Not at all portable or small. I can't say I've ever heard of the Dynojet (or any other dyno, for that matter) being referred to as an "East Coast dyno". I'm about 99% positive that the East Coast (specifically, Adrenalin Motorsport in Massachusetts) had a Dyno Dynamics Low Boy dyno before anywhere else in the country, so why isn't the DD called the "East Coast dyno"? Comical indeed.
Yeah I was misspoken, meant to say “DynoPACK” and instead said “Dynojet”

The DynoPack are the floor units which mount to each axle. They’re the least expensive Dyno and consume the least amount of floor-space to operate. This is the system which I’ve heard referred to as an “East Coast Dyno”, like this:

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Old 09-09-2005, 11:51 AM   #17
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Ahhhh... www.dynapackusa.com - located in Fresno, CA, imports from New Zealand. Maybe the East Coast of NZ?
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Old 09-09-2005, 01:02 PM   #18
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Pat, you are correct (I re-read my post and hated how it sounds)...anyways, second post after my interruption sounds more like it to me. They do fudge the numbers and CLAIM or lead us to assume they are Crank HP/TQ numbers....some are actually exact representations of their WHP...but you are right, they do not advertise that.
(Didn't mean to be an ass, just wanted to point out that although they are CLAIMED crank numbers you can't take them as word, as I think we both have now represented.
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Old 09-09-2005, 05:18 PM   #19
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Yup, DynaPacks are very prevalent at the car shows in NZ...I'm from there.

The only dynos worth testing or tuning on are in ground ones...and Mustang's are very good - they put more of a "real world" load on the car...if you tune on a "light" dyno without a lot of resistance, you'll blow the car in extreme real life conditions.

Horsepower, PS, kw ratings for manufacturers are ALWAYS done at the crank. There are TOO many variables for them to test a car on a wheel-dyno. Tires and wheels make a real-life difference.

So crank testing in a test environment is the only logical way for them to do it. (basically what Pat said)

With regard to the Japanese ratings - they were mandated by government to not sell a car with "more" than the 206kw - but everyone knows they did. Isn't is a bit odd that for 4-5 years the STi increased it's torque levels, but that the advertised kw stayed the same?

It was commonly known as the "Gentlemens' Agreement" - an informal ceiling that none of the manufacturers exceeded...at least in public.
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75

My boosted Legacy reads 256whp/240ft-lb on the higher reading Dynojet system. I have yet to get “second opinion” from a Mustang style system which would provide a good comparison. Stock WRX’s (i.e. 227 crank hp) read around 175whp on a Dynojet, even lower on a Mustang.

Anybody know what the 05' LGT's dyno stock?
xcntrk- I think I remember seeing a vid of you at the dragstrip, what kind of times did you run with those numbers you're putting down?
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer
The only dynos worth testing or tuning on are in ground ones...and Mustang's are very good - they put more of a "real world" load on the car...if you tune on a "light" dyno without a lot of resistance, you'll blow the car in extreme real life conditions.
I think any competent tuner would do road testing along with ther dyno testing. The dyno is just a tool to maximize and test power and the modifications/tuning settings on a car. Road tuning is an absolute neccessity as that is where the car will spend it's lifetime. The dyno just lets you do that tuning much more quickly and in a controlled environment. As long as the Dyno is accurate and consistent then the rest is cake. That being said a good dyno IMO is worth the money but I don't really agree with the comment above.
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Old 09-10-2005, 04:06 PM   #22
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I had my Legacy tuned by TurboXS who’s the company that manufactures the UTEC engine management system I’m using. Very popular amongst the Impreza crowd. They also make 05’ Legacy UTEC’s too.

TurboXS has an in-house DynoPack system which they use for the first phase of their tuning. Your car spends about an hour on the Dyno, then they hit the streets for another hour of road tuning complete with wideband A/F readings and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchGT
xcntrk- I think I remember seeing a vid of you at the dragstrip, what kind of times did you run with those numbers you're putting down?
R/T: .065
60’: 1.93
1/4: 13.7
MPH: 98.6

This is my best time so far and at that event I ran high 13's all day long. This was before my most recent suspension setup and was actually on the old stock suspension which had lots of sagging on launch and diving between gears. I’ve been out once with the new suspension but it was a wash due to over 100F relative temperatures and everybody was running terribly. I imagine on a nice cool day I can probably get down to 13.5 with this setup. I may never see it however as I’m in the process of installing a VF22 which should push me over 300whp and hopefully down into the 12’s…

Since you mentioned it, here’s a few vids of my boosted BD in action:
Very HOT day, everybody was running slow
13 second runs
A little goofing around [Right-Click + Save-As: (34Mb)]
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Old 09-10-2005, 04:19 PM   #23
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ya, a VF22 should make things interesting Between your project and Ben's we should see some amazing cars on this forum this fall!!!
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Old 09-10-2005, 06:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75
TurboXS has an in-house DynoPack system which they use for the first phase of their tuning.
It's worth noting that Dynapacks read even higher than Dynojets. Nonetheless, 256whp is damn impressive and...

Quote:
R/T: .065
60’: 1.93
1/4: 13.7
MPH: 98.6
... is sweet. My best with ~200-205hp at the crank is 15.4s @ 87.xx. (I trapped at 89.5mph once, so I think that was a timing fluke since the ET was still in the 15.4s). Another 10+mph in trap speed is generally considered to be 100+hp. Not too shabby at all in a sleeper.

Pat
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Old 09-10-2005, 08:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen
It's worth noting that Dynapacks read even higher than Dynojets. Nonetheless, 256whp is damn impressive and...


... is sweet. My best with ~200-205hp at the crank is 15.4s @ 87.xx. (I trapped at 89.5mph once, so I think that was a timing fluke since the ET was still in the 15.4s). Another 10+mph in trap speed is generally considered to be 100+hp. Not too shabby at all in a sleeper.

Pat
Pat I've read all about your suspension setup, what kind of power mods are you running?
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