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Old 08-27-2005, 12:59 AM   #1
marc l
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Default tuning hydra standalone

does anyone have any information on tuning of the hydra stand alone. in terms of tuning. or does anyone know how to change the maps for a boosted aplication.
also, i have an autometer boost gauge that is reading my turbo at 8 psi while the hydra map only detects one psi. is there any explination for this or info about what is acurate...
any help on this would be great
thANKS
marc l
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Old 08-27-2005, 03:49 PM   #2
engineerx
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Do a search ya N00B !!


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734092

If you don't know jack about tuning- I strongly recommend you don't practice on your car, unless you have $5k budget for engine repairs.

The Hydra is a very capable EMS , in proper hands. Contact Phil and find out when he'll be near your town for a tuning session.

It will not be cheap - but you will get the best possible tune, won't run the risk of melting your pistons... etc

On the other hand - get the base map from Phil for your setup. Log log log... check your parameters and do miniscule changes

Good Luck!
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Old 08-27-2005, 10:35 PM   #3
marc l
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wow! lol
sorry i should have used the search for as long as ive been on numerous forums and i cant even do what i used to tell other ppl
anywzy im having tom at techworks eng tuning it sofar its great but i was looking for other info like why my fans werent turning on and the ghey stalling problems.
anywzy thanks for the info

marc l
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Old 08-28-2005, 11:05 AM   #4
erggy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marc l
wow! lol
sorry i should have used the search for as long as ive been on numerous forums and i cant even do what i used to tell other ppl
anywzy im having tom at techworks eng tuning it sofar its great but i was looking for other info like why my fans werent turning on and the ghey stalling problems.
anywzy thanks for the info

marc l
for ur fan.. check under one of ur outputs... see if fan is set to turn on at a certain Water temp which is too high

for stalling, does it happen when u come to a light and shift into neutral, try open up the butterfly plate just a bit and reset ur TPS under settings.

hope this helps
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Old 08-28-2005, 04:30 PM   #5
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Check that the hose running from the back of the Hydra unit through the firewall to the passenger side of the intake system is attached well and properly. I'm concerned that your reading ambient psi (around 1 psi) when it should be plumbed into the boost system. You need to get that right or you wil blow up the engine in short order. In fact since you are logging, make sure you are not encountering detonation--there are two knock columns in the logs.

If the car is stalling, there are several things you could do depending on when the stall occurs. Erggy mentions one, but not the one I've seen most, which is an idle setting.

Fan turn on temp is output PWM 15 I believe or nearby.

Keep calm. Your car will be running great soon.
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Old 08-29-2005, 01:47 PM   #6
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marc 1,

If you didnít purchase your Hydra via Element Tuning then you have a long road ahead of you tuning as you are going to have to tune every single mapping feature. We sell base maps and support if you find you cannot tune this on your own. Of course base maps and support are provided free to Element Tuning Hydra customers. So if you are then give us a call with your serial number.

There are many knowledgeable customers on here that can steer you in the correct direction but donít underestimate how difficult it is to tune a standalone with a bad base map. There are over 65 maps, settings, and outputs that need to be adjusted when starting from scratch.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elmenttuning.com
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Old 08-29-2005, 05:48 PM   #7
bboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
donít underestimate how difficult it is to tune a standalone with a bad base map. There are over 65 maps, settings, and outputs that need to be adjusted when starting from scratch.
I second that. I've spent a couple hundred hours tweaking my Hydra, and I've only seen the 'tip of the iceberg.' ......And I'm just tuning stuff to make it run better and learn more about how everything works.....thank god it starts.
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Old 08-30-2005, 07:37 AM   #8
offset
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
thank god it starts.
Same words I utter after every mod I do. Even the fuel pump swap surprised me that nothing went wrong as simple as that is (I guess since I have yet to screw something up the odds are stacking up against me or something). And I want to get the WI kit from Phil after it comes up, which makes things even more complex. Thankfully Phil does a super job on the base maps to get things up and running so well.

offset
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Old 08-30-2005, 02:41 PM   #9
bboy
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The Hydra has worked great for me, but I am impressed by the meticulous time that Phil put into tuning the base maps. He's faster at optimizing than I am, but still its a lot of work to get everything just right. I'm glad he was doing it and not me.
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Old 08-30-2005, 02:47 PM   #10
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I am just wondering once it is dialed in, how much tweaking it needs?
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Old 08-30-2005, 08:08 PM   #11
Element Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronic
I am just wondering once it is dialed in, how much tweaking it needs?
It really depends how proficient you are with the software. I just installed fuel rails, 1000cc low impedance injectors, and a new turbocharger. It took me about 3 minutes to scale the fuel map down and adjust for the low impedance injectors. Downloaded the map and the car started right up and was idling around 13.5:1 so I made a few more global tweaks to the fuel map and drove around with AutoTune on. With about 20 minutes of AutoTune and monitoring what it was doing to my map I was able to simply extrapolate what trends I saw to the rest of the fuel map. About 2 hours total the pump gas map was perfected under all driving conditions but idle.

My idle fueling has to be absolutely perfect as my speedometer gear broke so the ecu cannot compensate the idle when the vehicle is in motion. I spent about 15 minutes today on just the idle portion of the fuel map and itís perfect now with the 1000cc injectors as it was with my 800cc.

I also spent about 1 hour on race gas tuning and managed an 11.4 and a high trap speed of 133 mph. Once you have a good base map to start with itís a piece of cake.

Why so little tuning time? Everything else was already adjusted so all that needed tweaking was the main fuel map. With the latest base settings and at least software revision 2.14, tuning is a piece of cake. Thereís even an extrapolation feature now that will smooth the map for you so you donít have to manually smooth things. It used to take me 6-8 hours to tune Hydras but the base maps have come so far that itís no harder tuning this than a piggy back because just like a piggy back you really only have to adjust fuel, spark, and boost.



As you can see tuning a Hydra is very sensible and intuitive. You need more fuel as boost increase, more as torque increases, and less as torque decreases. Everything must be smooth and linear. If your map isnít smooth like this then spend some time offline smoothing it out. I find the new ďF5Ē works extremely well selecting small chucks of your map to smooth out.

Now if youíre not as proficient as I am expect to quadruple the time required.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:25 PM   #12
cronic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Now if youíre not as proficient as I am expect to quadruple the time required.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
If i was as proficent as you it would be called the cronic hydra

Ok so if i get it nailed down, and dont change any parts it should be ok for a while? I understand you upgraded your fuel system so you had to tweak..

How about someone other the Phil who has had the hydra for a while? How often do you have to fiddle?

Dave-
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Old 08-30-2005, 11:24 PM   #13
DarthChicken
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Have to fiddle, or fiddle cause you can?

There's no reason you should have to fiddle with it, you set it, and its done. However, I'm always interested in playing with injector phasing, dwell time, the launch control (trying to hold just a LITTEL bit more boost between shifts) let alone trying to get ONE MORE DEGREE out of it without having it knock and having a safe tune, or taking out just a LITTLE BIT MORE FUEL, or trying to spool it up just a little faster, or getting that throttle pump set perfectly for any condition, any gear, or .....

The actual tuning for power is cake with the new software btw, you trim in the fuel so you're consistent across an RPM range, then hightlight the whole thing and start yanking fuel. You begin after a while to recognize certain behaviors, and know that to reduce that A/F by .1 you have to hit downarrow "x" number of times to do it.

When I had access to ECUTEK software (when I was with pdxtuning) I had reflashed my ECU 86 times... I like to play with stuff, thats why I got a standalone. It used to drive my wife nuts, and my boss, but they've given up, they just look over my shoulder, see the excel spreadsheet with the RPM and boost numbers on it and shake there heads...

With Phil's base maps, I believe I could get a car tuned in 2 hours... 3 hours tops, that would run as well as a stock car from a drivability standpoint. Which is saying quite a bit considering its a standalone!
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Old 08-30-2005, 11:44 PM   #14
cronic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
Have to fiddle, or fiddle cause you can?

There's no reason you should have to fiddle with it, you set it, and its done. However, I'm always interested in playing with injector phasing, dwell time, the launch control (trying to hold just a LITTEL bit more boost between shifts) let alone trying to get ONE MORE DEGREE out of it without having it knock and having a safe tune, or taking out just a LITTLE BIT MORE FUEL, or trying to spool it up just a little faster, or getting that throttle pump set perfectly for any condition, any gear, or .....

The actual tuning for power is cake with the new software btw, you trim in the fuel so you're consistent across an RPM range, then hightlight the whole thing and start yanking fuel. You begin after a while to recognize certain behaviors, and know that to reduce that A/F by .1 you have to hit downarrow "x" number of times to do it.

When I had access to ECUTEK software (when I was with pdxtuning) I had reflashed my ECU 86 times... I like to play with stuff, thats why I got a standalone. It used to drive my wife nuts, and my boss, but they've given up, they just look over my shoulder, see the excel spreadsheet with the RPM and boost numbers on it and shake there heads...

With Phil's base maps, I believe I could get a car tuned in 2 hours... 3 hours tops, that would run as well as a stock car from a drivability standpoint. Which is saying quite a bit considering its a standalone!

Have to fiddle.. Compulsive fiddling is diffferent

It is re-assuring that you feel you could get a car to stock like driveability that quick.. But once it is there, you are saying it will stay there for a while and not need constant tweaking? I am in Az where it is Hot or hotter, so i dont have huge gaps in season, although in the winter it gets down at night.

Phil sent you a PM regarding a used unit i have access to, just wanna make sure there is no updates etc i would need with it, since it was an OG one..

Dave-
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Old 08-31-2005, 01:37 AM   #15
DarthChicken
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Ask yourself another question - why would it change? You're putting in a certain amount of milliseconds of fuel for certain MAP levels. Unless the air changes drastically (caused by elevation or humidity levels changing a huge amount) it should be fine. I can guarantee you my A/Fs are more consistent than any ECUTek tune - if my logs day to day waver more than .2 A/F points its because something isn't setup right (be that intake temp map, or I've got a loose hose someplace).

I ran into a bit of a problem on my car when I hit 1700ft above sea level, going to the coast a few weekends ago. The car ran rich. My car is tuned at about 150ft above sea level. I expected it, and it happened (it was probably between .4 and .6 rich, I could feel the difference but the car still moved pretty good).

I'd like to see Hydra put a barametric sensor on the units, but they say its not needed on a turbocharged car, that elevation doesn't affect them.
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:11 AM   #16
Element Tuning
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DarthChicken,

I'm surprised you saw such a dramatic change at only 1700 ft.

You do have a barometric pressure sensor option that you can pin in and doesn't require tuning. I'm not sure that's a good or bad thing

If you look through your I/O categories you'll see that it's and option for I/O 1 to 3 (analog). You may already have these used for something else so it's up to you to set priority. I have no experience with it but it's available. Simply wire in a GM 1 Bar map sensor.

Cronic and others,

Also keep in mind that once your fuel map is tuned well you can run closed loop fuel control and WB Target table (you can set any AFR Target over 1100 load sites). This allows you to run closed loop fuel control under vacuum and boost with the only limitation being RPM. This works very well with larger turbochargers as you can run a fairly high maximum RPM of 4200 and have the closed loop fuel control turn off before you hit peak boost or peak torque.

For daily driving it doesn't get any better than that and I was able to record 360 miles to the tank on my WRX during a long distance trip.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 08-31-2005, 12:33 PM   #17
n2xlr8n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronic
......it would be called the cronic hydra

Dave-

...and you could have a witty biz named Hydracronics.


Okay.

That was awful.
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