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Old 09-14-2005, 02:25 PM   #1
drdeuce
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Default Bogging off idle with hydra

After working on the car for 2 months, I finally fired it up last night.

I have an 04 STi, and just swapped in a new Crawford R3 shortblock and rotated mount turbo kit. Previously, the car ran fine with an upgraded turbo and UTEC.

I have the WBO2 option. THe car starts fine and seems to idle smooth. After warming up, the AFR is stable at 14.7 at idle.

However, when I give it any gas, it bogs for 1 to 2 seconds, AFr drops instantly into the 11's and then revs. When the revs come back down, it bogs again. Sometimes it stalls, and sometimes it just goes down to about 400 rpm and then comes back up to a nice idle at 1000rpm.

Element tuning supplied me with a basemap that was supposed to be very close for my setup.

I've emailed Phil (along with a log) but haven't heard back yet. Tonight I may play around with the "enrichment coefficient" and the "throttle pump" adjustents. But don't really understand the difference between these two things.

Any other suggestions?


thanks
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Old 09-14-2005, 02:35 PM   #2
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Does it bog if you very slowly press the accelerator? Sounds almost as if the throttle-press enrichment (whatever it is called for the Hydra) is set too high. It could also be that the timing is off.
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Old 09-14-2005, 02:48 PM   #3
drdeuce
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Yes, it bogs no matter how the throttle is pressed.

I was very meticulous about installing the cams/sprockets/timing belt so i don't "think" timing is the problem. If timing was off, wouldn't this affect idle as well? The idle is very smooth.
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:32 PM   #4
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Please post the log (or a portion of it)
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:36 PM   #5
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Maybe a stupid question but did you set your TPS min/max?
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Old 09-14-2005, 03:56 PM   #6
drdeuce
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Yes, I set the TPS and Wideband 02 sensor up and that seems to be fine.

I'll post a log later tonight when I have my laptop with me.

thanks
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Old 09-14-2005, 04:37 PM   #7
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I meant timing as in the timing settings in the Hydra, not the cam/crank position relations.

If it's bogging when you try to rev it at any speed of presing the pedal, chances are it's either fuel settings (more likely) or the timing settings. Was the map sent to you specifically for your size injectors, or was it meant for different ones?
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Old 09-14-2005, 05:04 PM   #8
drdeuce
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The map I recieved from Phil was supposed to be for my exact setup (Perrin injectors, Crawford 2.65L, GT35R, etc.)

I started it up for the first time last night at 3am, and it seemed fine at idle. It wasn't until I touched the throttle that it didn't seem right. Didn't do much analysis given the time, but tonight I will have a closer look.
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Old 09-14-2005, 07:46 PM   #9
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I doubt it's idling at exactly 14.7. If it is, the O2 sensor is not sending signal. 14.7 is the default AFR.

How smoothly is it idling. Is it real smooth?

What is the idle RPM? What is the idle RPM once it's warm?

What is the vacuum reading at idle?

Delay in throttle occurs whether hot or cold?

Idle is one of the things that has a lot of settings so there are many routes to consider all of which are easy to select. Most likely to be off are the post start enrichment and idle temp adjustment, but there are hold host of others, including a rich fuel map right around idle.

You'll find that Phil is back in MD tomorrow.
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Old 09-14-2005, 07:48 PM   #10
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Idle temp adjustment?
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Old 09-14-2005, 09:38 PM   #11
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Select-->Control 1--> Air temp trim

It affects the idle even if it's just to enrich the fuel at low temp in general.
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:11 PM   #12
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Oh. Air Temp Trim.

("idle temp adjustment?" )
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Old 09-15-2005, 06:58 AM   #13
drdeuce
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Didn't get around to looking at the car tonight. My biggest problem is a lack of free time.

Does anyone know what Phil charges to fly out and do custom tuning?

thanks
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Old 09-15-2005, 08:02 PM   #14
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drdeuce,

Sorry I missed this while traveling. I check Nasioc frequently but miss these posts sometimes.

I just looked over your email and logs and noticed some interesting things such as extremely high coolant temps of 105c so double check your cooling system. I also noticed your car actually goes lean when you blip the throttle such as 16.7:1.

Given your setup I would not alter the mapping just yet as this base map is so popular and we usually do not have issues with this even on a 2.6. I just got back from a tuning trip and every single car I tuned had a mechanical issue which was though to be tuning. Since I'm an expert, it's easy for me to look at a map and say it's not a mapping issue and start looking for the problem under the hood. Here are the highlights of the trip:

Blown intercooler pipes
Vacuum line disconnected from the BOV at the manifold
Vacuum line disconnected into the Hydra
Vacuum line disconnected from the boost controller
Vacuum line disconnected from the fuel pressure regulator
Leaking fuel injector o-ring
Leaking fuel rail o-ring

Double check the basics but send me your map and I'll check for any obvious mistakes. The fact that the car goes lean when vacuum decreases leads me to think it's a fuel pressure issue.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 09-15-2005, 08:17 PM   #15
bboy
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"Vacuum line disconnected"

When I had this, I had rough idle, smokey at idle, and very sluggish throttle.

My idle fresh from Phil was running an AFR around 12. I leaned that out after awhile, but it did lead to higher coolant temps unless I was underway.
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Old 09-16-2005, 02:03 AM   #16
drdeuce
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Tonight I did dome more logs.

When I give it gas, it appears to bog, go lean, and rev. I haven't revved it very high (under 3000 rpm) becuase the AFR is lean and it feels very sluggish.

When I let off, the AFRs going into the 11's.

I played around with the Throttle pump settings and they did nothing at all.

It was running hot initially, but that was due not being able to get enough coolant in this capless Koyo rad which I have no fixed and the temps seem normal now.

I could post a log, but for some reason when I make a post it says I'm not allowed to post attachments. How do I post the excel file logs?

thanks
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Old 09-16-2005, 12:22 PM   #17
bboy
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The fact that it's going lean when you open the throttle points to some fueling issue. It could be anywhere along the path from the tank to the injectors.

Since he Hydra is starting and idling the car it's unlikely that is where the problem is. Do you see idle RPM drop as the engine warms up, or can you keep it on that long? If you do, that would point to the various Hydra algorithms doing their job, and again to a mechanical problem.

That's a high idle AFR even when warm. Phil may have changed the maps since I got mine--but a vacuum leak would do the same.

I'd check everything about the engine and exhaust and fuel system and Hydra--down to removing and re-installing the O2 sensor. If there is nothing found or things don't improve, I'd stick stock injectors back in there and hook up the ECU for diagnostics (pretty easy on the STI). If it run's fine with the stock ECU and stock injectors, your down to those two as culprits. If you pull codes you can check that stuff out.

Or go straight for the ECU + injector swap and use that info to inform your decisions about where to look for other issues.

Logging data with the Hydra, as you have done, tests the main functions of the unit. If those parameters look good and flucuate/respond sensibly, it's working.
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Old 09-16-2005, 08:58 PM   #18
drdeuce
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I'm just installing a fuel pressure gauge and then I have a new richer map that Phil sent me after looking at my logs.

Hopefully that will answer some questions.

Going back to the stock ECU (or UTEC) is difficult now that I don't have any bung in my custom uppipe for the front O2 sensor and I don't have any provisions for TGV sensors.

The injectors are modded Perrin ones that work fine before with my UTEC and the only differnce on my new setup is that they have been flow tested/cleaned by RC Engineering (tested very good, BTW).

The fuel pump, injectors, lines etc are all unchanged from my previous setup running a 20G/UTEC so I don't see how ther could be a problem there, but who knows.

thanks
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Old 09-17-2005, 02:18 AM   #19
drdeuce
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I'm making progress here.

Phil looked at my log and send me new map that just basically richened it up across the board.

The good news is that the car is now driveable

However, it still has some issues. It's actually too rich during vacuum but that should be easy to correct. The interesting thing is that I still have a problem with bogging when I tap the throttle or get on it quickly. It bogs, won't rev, and goes lean for a few seconds. However, if I just gradually get on the throttle, it stays rich under vacuum and revs up smoothly.

I also installed a new autometer electronic FP guage. I've never used a FP guage so I'm not sure how they react normally.

My setup is: Walbro 255 pump, stock lines, stock regulator(never been modified), stock rails, Perrin 802cc injectors.

My impressions:

1. FP at idle is 51 PSI (seems a bit high? but not a bad thing I don't think. I've also heard that the FP can vary based on elevation and I'm at 4000ft.)

2. When I get on the throttle gradually, the FP doesn't change and the AFR remains rich but it is smooth and doesn't bog.

3. When I press the throttle quickly, the FP instantly flashes to 56 psi but then the AFR runs lean (which is counterintuitive to me) and the engine won't rev/bogs. The engine only starts to rev once the FP drops down to 51, but I have no clue if these are related in any way.

4. When I get into boost, the FP gradually increases as expected.


So, is this normal behavior for the FP to spike for a few seconds when you get on the throttle quickly when you are still under vacuum?

thanks
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Old 09-17-2005, 12:39 PM   #20
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Something is wrong (duh! )

My fuel pressure is set at 3.0 bar at idle (under vacuum, line connected), and your pressure should increase in a very linear fashion. The hydra runs the fuel pressure at about 49-50psi (this is with the vacuum line to the PR disconnected), and you should be getting a 1:1 increase as you increase pressure. Only a 5-6psi increase when you tap the throttle is about right.

The rich A/Fs off throttle shouldn't be worried about (yet). Thats something you can tune out later - ie in my map I've got a bunch of "0s" in the decel columns, not sure if Phil is doing it that way or not (everybody does it differently... there is no "RIGHT" way to do this).

Have you turned the autotune on? I suggest turning it on, and driving it around for an hour or two. Not under boost (and NOT WOT, don't blip it, just drive it around gently), just driving it through all the vacumn sites, let it do its thing. Upload from the hydra when you're done, save the map, and download it back to the hydra (don't shut down the car the entire time btw). Then take THAT map and send it back to Phil. It will help him diagnose your car. Its VERY hard to tune a car from a distance, sending him a log and your "learned" map will help him a lot!

I think you're still lean.... for one reason or another, be it a leaky fuel injector gasket, a leaky atmospheric BOV, or vacumn line. But it can be tuned around.

EDIT: more thoughts
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Old 09-17-2005, 03:31 PM   #21
drdeuce
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It appears my stock FPR is screwed up.

My baseline pressure at Idle with the vacuum hose off is 60psi. Connecting the hose drops it down to 52psi.

I've also been told that the rapid increase when I blip the throttle is not right.

I have an aftermarket adjustable FPR that is going in today and i'll see if that helps. Then I'll try out autotune.

thanks
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Old 09-17-2005, 08:19 PM   #22
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I too tuned the the vacuum area heavily to remove fuel under heavy vacuum. I could not get decel fuel cut to work as I liked.

Autotune is great for tuning off boost. Phil likes to have the Hydra pull the fuel "down" to 14.7. I just tuned mine right to it or higher. Sounds like maybe you are running in open loop fueling everywhere--that will drive you crazy until you tune in those zones. You should turn "closed loop" with wide band on for the 1200 to 4500 RPMrange, but check that it's shutting off under boost--it's one of the control maps.

Your FPR does sound funny. Looks like it's not opening, but then you see a lean condition and that does not make sense, that almost sounds like an exhaust leak near the O2 sensor. Just a thought.

I'd check your fuel return line as well. A clog there could cause higher FP and starve you of fuel if everything is getting drained in the fuel rail when you accelerate. The FPR controls. I'm thinking out loud..... gotta go....glad your up and running at least partly...it's going to be a beast.
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Old 09-18-2005, 01:07 AM   #23
drdeuce
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Put in a new aeromotive FPR and got the Fp to whee it is supposed to be. But the car runs the same.

Tried turning on autotune and drove around for a half hour slowly without getting into any boost and the car ran like crap. AFRs were all over the place with autotune on and didn't seem like they were approaching 14.7 at all. With autotune off, it would run OK if you get on the gas gradually and only have a lean spike for a second if you get on the gas quickly. With autotune on, it would run lean initially no matter how soft you touch the throttle and was barely driveable. Weird.
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Old 09-18-2005, 02:42 PM   #24
Element Tuning
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drdeuce,

As this point we shouldn't rule out a defective Hydra. Send it, the harness, and wb to me and we'll test in on a car. If the unit is defective we'll refund your shipping costs and get a replacement out to as soon as possible. At this point lets at least eliminate that variable so you don't waste too much time searching for other problems.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 09-18-2005, 05:07 PM   #25
bboy
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That's very cool!!

I'm not going to argue with Phil checking out the Hydra, but I might try to check it out some more before sending it off. Do the AFR, RPM, MAP and and IDC values match up with the logger turned up to 16Hz? Do safe changes to fueling or timing show up in the logs? I'm a big fan of using the logs to check out the EM system--plus you may learn something new.

I also like idea of installing the stock injectors and running the stock ECU off boost and seeing if it pulls any codes. I did that (at Phil's suggestion) after I got my Hydra and learned that the MAF sensor was not measuring air temp, and that explained my very rich fueling--the Hydra "thought" is was -20 C (about -40 F). Replacing the MAF corrected the problem.
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