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Old 09-18-2005, 01:44 AM   #1
Shabib67
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Default DB SZ65 vs GT35R

I was wondering which one makes more power. Whats the lag on both and hp capability on 93 pump gas.
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Old 09-18-2005, 10:10 AM   #2
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anyone?
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Old 09-18-2005, 10:22 AM   #3
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Which GT-35R, That SZ65 can hit over 500 WHP on 100 octane. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=sz65 Most of the GT-35R rotated mounts are about 530 on 116 octane with a little more lag, IMO not noticeable. For straight bolt on deadbolt SZ65 is the heat! There is a bolt on GT-35R. god has a GT-35r from SBR
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=800582 on 93 octane he ran 420whp at 22 psi. pretty good I think, right now I am leaning towards that turbo!

Last edited by west005; 09-18-2005 at 10:23 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-18-2005, 12:33 PM   #4
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I'd go db
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Old 09-18-2005, 12:50 PM   #5
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I beleive from my reasearch in the forums that the average for the gt35r on 110 is about 520whp (e.g. ultimate racing, kingpin) and 590whp on c16 (element tuning). The highest numbers on the sz65 has been about 490whp.

Pretty close in my opinion. It just depends on what you're going for. There's probably about a 50-75 max whp difference between the two. Spool is pretty close with the advantage to the sz65 (about 200 rpm sooner). Even though the GT35r has a larger turbine, it is a full ball bearing center housing using the newest aerodynamic wheel designs (simial if not identical to those in Formula 1 and other pro forms of motorsports).

Again, it depends on what you're looking for. All of the fastest subbie guys are running gt35's or similar. (Element Tuning, Gadiel in Puerto Rice..etc). If you want something with similar performance give or take 30whp on pump and 50whp on race gas, a bit better spool, and bolt into the stock location, the sz65 is the way to go. Search the forums and give deadbolt and some of the other vendors a call before you buy though. as the sz65 will require some modifications to bolt up since the compressor housing is so large.. (BTW.. I also considered an sz55, sz60, sz65, and red before I purchased my gt35r). It was a pretty tough decision for me until I added up the costs (which were within a few hundred dollars all said and done) and factored in flexibility and ease of install.

Hope this helps.
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Old 09-18-2005, 06:10 PM   #6
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I faced all of the same decisions too and decided after three months of comparing the big three, FP, Garrett and Deadbolt, to go with the SZ65. I ordered it on Friday and look to receive it sometime in late October. The deciding factor for me was the staff at Deadbolt who sells both the GT30R, 35R, and the Superzilla series. I always got a quick answer to my frequent questions from them over the past several months and they always thanked me every time as if I just placed an order. They could have sold me either the Garrett or the Deadbolt and they leaned heavily toward the SZ. They have the same year, model, and even color of my STi for a test car so I'm not exactly blazing new ground here. They told me up front that the GT35R would support slightly higher whp numbers but that the Superzilla would spool faster and be more efficient for my needs. I'd be using a Tial 44mm EWG with both turbos and supported with direct port nitrous. In the end, I always like to be a little different than the usual modder and this offered me a chance to add that uniqueness to the most important performance upgrade. Besides, I already have a catless Perrin turbo back exhaust system that I will not have to change.
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Old 09-18-2005, 10:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syoung0298
using the newest aerodynamic wheel designs (simial if not identical to those in Formula 1 and other pro forms of motorsports).
Since when did F1 use turbos (lately that is)
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Old 09-18-2005, 11:25 PM   #8
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CART cars actually still use turbos but I beleive they were banned from IRL, and Formula 1.. primarily for safety reasons. I mis-stated Formula 1.. however turbo's are still used in other forms of open wheel racing.

Last edited by syoung0298; 09-18-2005 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 09-19-2005, 07:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west005
...There is a bolt on GT-35R. god has a GT-35r from SBR
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=800582 on 93 octane he ran 420whp at 22 psi. pretty good I think, right now I am leaning towards that turbo!
This is NOT a GT35R, rather it's a hybrid. Garrett GTBB series turbos are built ONLY by Garrett, and they are NOT bolt-on snails. Do your research - there are *big* differences between the real thing and the hybrids, starting with the diameter of the intake/output, not to mention the design and engineering of both turbine housings. If you put a Ford crank in a Subaru motor, would *you* use marketing-speak to convince folks that it's now a Ford motor? Well, that's exactly what SBR does with its "GT" series turbos.

And, remember that DB has a conflict of interest when it comes to selling their own hybrids versus Garrett turbos: they make more money on their hybrids. (I'm not saying their hybrids are bad -on the contrary, some of them are *excellent*- rather I'm just pointing out what might not be so obvious.)

If I had to choose between a SBR and DB snail, it'd be DB every time. And, if I had to chose between a true GT35R and a SZ65, it'd be neither; I'd opt for a true GT30R, which is what I have.
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Old 09-19-2005, 08:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster
This is NOT a GT35R, rather it's a hybrid. Garrett GTBB series turbos are built ONLY by Garrett, and they are NOT bolt-on snails. Do your research - there are *big* differences between the real thing and the hybrids, starting with the diameter of the intake/output, not to mention the design and engineering of both turbine housings. If you put a Ford crank in a Subaru motor, would *you* use marketing-speak to convince folks that it's now a Ford motor? Well, that's exactly what SBR does with its "GT" series turbos.

And, remember that DB has a conflict of interest when it comes to selling their own hybrids versus Garrett turbos: they make more money on their hybrids. (I'm not saying their hybrids are bad -on the contrary, some of them are *excellent*- rather I'm just pointing out what might not be so obvious.)

If I had to choose between a SBR and DB snail, it'd be DB every time. And, if I had to chose between a true GT35R and a SZ65, it'd be neither; I'd opt for a true GT30R, which is what I have.
well then....tell us how you really feel about hybrids. haha.
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster
This is NOT a GT35R, rather it's a hybrid. Garrett GTBB series turbos are built ONLY by Garrett, and they are NOT bolt-on snails. Do your research - there are *big* differences between the real thing and the hybrids, starting with the diameter of the intake/output, not to mention the design and engineering of both turbine housings. If you put a Ford crank in a Subaru motor, would *you* use marketing-speak to convince folks that it's now a Ford motor? Well, that's exactly what SBR does with its "GT" series turbos.

And, remember that DB has a conflict of interest when it comes to selling their own hybrids versus Garrett turbos: they make more money on their hybrids. (I'm not saying their hybrids are bad -on the contrary, some of them are *excellent*- rather I'm just pointing out what might not be so obvious.)

If I had to choose between a SBR and DB snail, it'd be DB every time. And, if I had to chose between a true GT35R and a SZ65, it'd be neither; I'd opt for a true GT30R, which is what I have.
On the contrary, years ago you could not buy the GT35R any other way than just buying the CHRA by itself. This led a lot of companies to cast their own "Garrett style" T3 turbine housings... companies like PTE, etc... Now, you can buy the GT35R with a .63, .82, and a few other turbine choices.

We here at SBR have been casting turbine housings for almost four years. We have four of our own castings, DSM GT and G series (G series being standard bearing Garrett CHRA) and now two for the WRX/STI.

The difference between SBR, and other companies who use the GT CHRA in bolt on configuration, happens to be the turbine housing and the compressor cover. Obviously, you could not use a straight up T3 turbine housing and 4" inlet To4S compressor cover in bolt on configuration, so it only makes sense companies try to meet the need of people who are looking for a true bolt on instead of spending 3k plus on a rotate mount set up.

Are there drawbacks? Of course. You are giving up TQ over about 5800 RPM's due to the size of the turbine housing. Not to mention, the internal WG set up is really only good for up to about 450 ish WHP in most applications.

So, in short, rather than throw a bunch of parts in a CHRA (like DB), we happen to use the real BB CHRA from Garrett as a starting point (they happen to be the most reliable, well built turbo in the world) and cast our own turbine housing, as well as compressor cover.

Why you say? To meet a demand in the market place that called for such a product.

Now, to the way a GT35R can perform in a "non" Garrett turbine housing... we have made more power with a 35R CHRA than anyone else on record, at just over 640 WHP in our .63 a/r turbine housing. Yes, thats more than people have made in Garrett turbine housings off the nitrous.

So, next time you say I am trying to sell someone a Ford, please do some research and get your facts straight, I will be back to my normal self the next time your off

MGH
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Old 09-19-2005, 11:55 PM   #12
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Why do you guys dog the SBR GT-35R? Flycaster you look bad enough soI will not rub it in. It is a GT-35R and it is bad ass in my eyes. I will be getting one. And I am a fan of deadbolt too, no bias!
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west005
Why do you guys dog the SBR GT-35R? Flycaster you look bad enough soI will not rub it in. It is a GT-35R and it is bad ass in my eyes. I will be getting one. And I am a fan of deadbolt too, no bias!
The problem lies in that alot of these turbo's don't have 1/4 mile times to backup horsepower claims. Horsepower is only a measure of what the dyno is set-up to read. (sadly enough).

Me, I have a "lowly" SZ49 on an EJ207, run 11.3 @ 125... IMO, every GT35R turbo/based turbo equipped car should be well into the 10s when properly set-up and tuned. Anything less is really not impressive for that turbo (especially on larger "built" motors).

def
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:33 AM   #14
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sz49's are FAT. The new fatboy turbine housing is sweet. I would'nt mind having a SZ65 or GT-35R from slowboy. I have a GT-14 right now, I will upgrade soon. I am hoping to go into 10 second range with a direct bolt on, I think that would be awsome. I have headers on top of regular supporting mods. I will also add a second walbro and a Magnus intake to help me along. Hopefully a nice dual stage water injection kit for X-Mas.
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:37 AM   #15
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I have to give it to To dug on this one..He not only has a turbo,instead of guessing..But, he has actual data besides a dyno to show for it..Not saying that some of these dyno numbers are'nt impressive by any means..But, with some of the power,that these tuners here in the states are putting down..I would expect some serious times out there..And, to date there are only a few that have proven what their setups can do..Just a thought..Justin..
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Old 09-20-2005, 01:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braz
well then....tell us how you really feel about hybrids. haha.
I already did, and I said I like some of them, a lot. Rather than re-typing it, try reading it again a little more slowly.
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Old 09-20-2005, 02:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy
So, next time you say I am trying to sell someone a Ford, please do some research and get your facts straight, I will be back to my normal self the next time your off
MGH
You know *exactly* what I was saying, and I stand by it. You sit back and let people talk about your "GT35R" turbos, knowing full well that that they are NOT GT35R turbos. And, yes, the analogy is right on the money.

I've personally recommended non-rotated mount blowers to a lot of folks, and the short list includes Forced Performance, Deadbolt and APS. This is based on the many positve experiences that people and name tuners have had with those products, and the blowers NOT on that list is due to the *negative* experiences that customers and name tuners have had with those products.

I did a *lot* of research, and talked with just about every major tuner on the west coast and got their opinions as well.
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Old 09-20-2005, 09:28 AM   #18
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Yeah, A lot of tuners do not sell SBR turbo's and are definatly bias! I have talked to some too. They just keep saying "the hotside is small buy ours ahhh"!
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Old 09-20-2005, 10:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west005
Yeah, A lot of tuners do not sell SBR turbo's and are definatly bias! I have talked to some too. They just keep saying "the hotside is small buy ours ahhh"!
Biased? Wrong word. The guys I spoke with (along with several guys here and at other forums) had specifc *reasons*. They bought them and they didn't work out, or they tried tuning cars with them and they didn't work out. That isn't bias, that's opinion based on actual experience.

I'm done here. All I wanted to do is point out a couple of facts and clear up some misunderstandings. That a particular after-market company doesn't much care for that is not my problem.
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Old 09-20-2005, 11:34 AM   #20
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There is a way to resolve this :a reputable independent tuning shop should run all of the following on identically modded cars on the same fuel at similar ambient conditions-- FP RED , DB SZ65, SBR GT35R, GARRETT GT35R (rotated mount) . Obviously easier said than done but the vendors should welcome the challenge.
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Old 09-20-2005, 11:49 AM   #21
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I have to rant a little here. It bothers me that people are so caught up about which turbo will eek out the extra 5whp. You don't need a comparitive dyno of each setup on the same car to decide what you need.

Let me put it this way
-GT35R will make the most power if properly setup (no comprimise in the housings)
-FP RED/DB SZ65 will make very similiar numbers. Similiar center sections 7cm exh. housing, similiar compressor covers. Both are proven companies that perform
-SBR GT35 bolt on will likely perform very similiarly to the RED/SZ65 as it's a comparable center section with 'bolt on' size compressor cover and exhaust housing.

My point is this. 90% of people using these turbo's will not reach the potential of the turbo. This to me means that there is a bigger problem/restriction to deal with in the general setup rather than concerning yourself over turbo selection.

People need to realize what fits their needs
-bolt on or not?
-availability of turbo
-cost
-customer service of company

...and then choose the turbo that fits those characteristics, not a power number.

It's just a bit frustrating to have people argue over these turbos as they are so similiar it's almost irrelevant. (especially when people argue over pump gas numbers) Think green vs. SZ49, it's the same argument.

They are all laggy and will all make upwards of 450whp (however you want to quantify that).

The tune, setup, boost, fuel, region of the country, etc. will all play a much larger role in variances between turbos than the actual turbo itself on most setups people are running these turbos on.

Not to say there aren't some advantages to choosing a particular turbo, but imo most of these are 'perceived' advantages that likely play little role in the real world on real setups.
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:11 PM   #22
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How about PDX Tuning??? They've tuned many FP Green's and Tim already has an FP Red. They've tuned many GT30 & 35R's. They will be installing and tuning my SZ65 when it arrives sometime next month. To my knowledge, mine will be their first Deadbolt SZ65 install. Let the data roll!!!
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy
On the contrary, years ago you could not buy the GT35R any other way than just buying the CHRA by itself. This led a lot of companies to cast their own "Garrett style" T3 turbine housings... companies like PTE, etc... Now, you can buy the GT35R with a .63, .82, and a few other turbine choices.

We here at SBR have been casting turbine housings for almost four years. We have four of our own castings, DSM GT and G series (G series being standard bearing Garrett CHRA) and now two for the WRX/STI.

The difference between SBR, and other companies who use the GT CHRA in bolt on configuration, happens to be the turbine housing and the compressor cover. Obviously, you could not use a straight up T3 turbine housing and 4" inlet To4S compressor cover in bolt on configuration, so it only makes sense companies try to meet the need of people who are looking for a true bolt on instead of spending 3k plus on a rotate mount set up.

Are there drawbacks? Of course. You are giving up TQ over about 5800 RPM's due to the size of the turbine housing. Not to mention, the internal WG set up is really only good for up to about 450 ish WHP in most applications.

So, in short, rather than throw a bunch of parts in a CHRA (like DB), we happen to use the real BB CHRA from Garrett as a starting point (they happen to be the most reliable, well built turbo in the world) and cast our own turbine housing, as well as compressor cover.

Why you say? To meet a demand in the market place that called for such a product.

Now, to the way a GT35R can perform in a "non" Garrett turbine housing... we have made more power with a 35R CHRA than anyone else on record, at just over 640 WHP in our .63 a/r turbine housing. Yes, thats more than people have made in Garrett turbine housings off the nitrous.

So, next time you say I am trying to sell someone a Ford, please do some research and get your facts straight, I will be back to my normal self the next time your off

MGH

We went through this last year when I tested your turbos. Lets please not do this again. I dont have the time Mike.

Your Cast iron housings are not better then Garretts. They are copies and the AR's are to small for EJ's

Please stop using DSM numbers to market Subaru turbos. It will bite you in the ass like it did last year. You are never going to make 640whp with an SBR 35R conconction on an EJ motor.

Why not just be honest? Your SBR35R is a compromise turbo. Its not better then a real GT35R with a 3 inch GT turbine and 4 inch compressor in any way shape or form. THe only thing it has going for it is that it bolts on. But even then the heart ache of doing that is hidden until the customer actualy buys one.

Clark
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dug-e-fresh
The problem lies in that alot of these turbo's don't have 1/4 mile times to backup horsepower claims. Horsepower is only a measure of what the dyno is set-up to read. (sadly enough).

Me, I have a "lowly" SZ49 on an EJ207, run 11.3 @ 125... IMO, every GT35R turbo/based turbo equipped car should be well into the 10s when properly set-up and tuned. Anything less is really not impressive for that turbo (especially on larger "built" motors).

def
I partly agree with you.. How many tenths do you think your dog box is worth? IMO i would guess close to 3-5 tenths. But using a dogbox could also mean properly setting up a car, i just do not think many USDM sti owners will ever go that route.
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:46 PM   #25
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(QUOTE=Soon2Bgreat)I have to rant a little here. It bothers me that people are so caught up about which turbo will eek out the extra 5whp. You don't need a comparitive dyno of each setup on the same car to decide what you need.(END QUOTE)

People are entitled to know what they are buying . There are huge discrepancies in dyno charts relied on by vendors to promote their products.
The variables caused by atmospheric conditions ,dyno type and correction factors etc. render the claims meaningless.

Its not a question of whether the full capabilty of the turbo will be used , but rather of assessing the vendor's claims in a (reasonably) scientific, verifiable manner.

For example the header shootout in Speedstylesound magazine was very informative-- it showed very little difference between the various types and brands of aftermarket headers.

If what you're saying is correct must we accept that claims to improved spoolup from "custom" turbine wheels are mere sales talk? What about dual ball bearing vs. thrust bearing claims ?

All I'm saying is either people should forget the debates and accept everything with a pinch of salt or take your word for it -- otherwise a proper unbiased assessment is called for.

Last edited by macaws; 09-20-2005 at 12:51 PM. Reason: error
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