Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday July 14, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Normally Aspirated Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-19-2005, 08:43 PM   #1
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default TWE makes NA streetable car = STI

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...=846988&page=1

See Dyno graphs in above thread

Apparently the magic is in new heads by TWE
Details will come out next week

The torque curve is 200 ft-lb at the dyno, from 2000 - 6000 rpm
and 235 hp peak

An STI on the same dyno came up at 233 hp peak
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 08:44 PM   #2
svek
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 82259
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: koledge at csus
Vehicle:
1999 impreza 2.2L
Brilliant Red <4EAT Club>

Default

is that what it was? i saw the thread and the best guess i saw was SC. some geniuses at twe if this is true...
svek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 09:00 PM   #3
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default

There were some posts on that thread that denied that it was a SC
and the TWE guy said it was reworked heads

I would expect it had something to do with new cams too

Matt Monson gets 150-160 ft-lb of torque without reworked heads
Most heads add 15 ft-lb of torque, which would take it to 175 ft-lb

I guess TWE came up with something new for heads
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 09:09 PM   #4
ej25power
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14771
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Washington's Mexico aka Tigard
Vehicle:
02 RS
All Silver!

Default

OMG One day these heads will be on my car.
ej25power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 09:14 PM   #5
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default

Since this dyno curve makes as much as an STI with more area under the curve
at low rpms, it is superior to a stock STI with no lag
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 09:16 PM   #6
svek
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 82259
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: koledge at csus
Vehicle:
1999 impreza 2.2L
Brilliant Red <4EAT Club>

Default

its also lighter than an sti, what were the other mods on the car to make that much power? im seriously interested in this, only prob is it would lower the cr on my poor ej22
svek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 09:41 PM   #7
Kostamojen
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2272
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: haha XD
Vehicle:
2013 Subaru 599 :P
Galaxy Blue Sexy

Default

My question is:

Will it be cheaper than a WRX/STI swap?
Kostamojen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 10:01 PM   #8
LA
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 7119
Join Date: Jun 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: chesapeake va usa
Vehicle:
2000 impreza rs
blue ridge pearl

Default

all i have to say is that i can't wait to see the press release on this set-up
LA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 10:03 PM   #9
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default

I think in terms of performance it beats an STI
In terms of cost it may be slightly cheaper
From the TWE website, their stage 3 head package including cams runs US$4500
Add in pistons $1000 and parts come to about $5500
Labor should be about $2k
So I think we will be about $7500, plus NA cars are infinitely more reliable and street legal and emissions legal as compared to SC-turbo swaps
NA cars dont detonate
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 10:30 PM   #10
jamesfacts
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 51282
Join Date: Dec 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Brooklyn NYC / Danbury CT
Vehicle:
98 RS
black & blue from parking

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Subramaniam
NA cars dont detonate


Sure they can.
jamesfacts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 10:43 PM   #11
Bobert540
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 82281
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Hershey,PA
Vehicle:
2013 WRX Ltd. Hatch
DGM

Default

For $7500 i would do a wrx swap with upgraded parts and it can still be a reliable DD
Bobert540 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 11:25 PM   #12
Tim Sanderson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6486
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: S.E. wisconsin
Vehicle:
00 Impreza 2.5 RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

Don't forget to add bigger injectors and fuel pump to the cost of the "package"

Looks nice. Expensive!, but nice.

I wonder if they have had any issues with the timing belt.
Tim Sanderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 11:27 PM   #13
mrpedal
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 71361
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: SFBay
Vehicle:
2000 Impreza 2.5RS
silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Subramaniam
plus NA cars are infinitely more reliable and street legal and emissions legal
...well, maybe in some places. I seriously doubt that monster can pass CA smog, let alone the visual inspection. I'll dream a bit though

I can't see why a turbo swap wouldn't be easily streetable and emmisions compliant. You only run into probs when you start modding....... and then a gutted uppipe is much harder to spot than a shiny Cobb CAI on a NA.

Just being devil's advocate here, I'm dying to see this PR like everyone else. How the hell do you get 40whp OVER cams,headwork, + all the available bolt ons?
mrpedal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 11:34 PM   #14
svek
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 82259
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: koledge at csus
Vehicle:
1999 impreza 2.2L
Brilliant Red <4EAT Club>

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpedal
...well, maybe in some places. I seriously doubt that monster can pass CA smog, let alone the visual inspection.
a cold air intake is illegal in cali...
svek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 11:39 PM   #15
Storm
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 5218
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: SAUL'S Motorsports
Vehicle:
96L Most Over-
Developed Beater

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpedal
Just being devil's advocate here, I'm dying to see this PR like everyone else. How the hell do you get 40whp OVER cams,headwork, + all the available bolt ons?
By using careful tuning....

This car qualified 3rd in it's first outing with suspension issues that weren't discovered until afterword. Look for a PR from zzyzx regarding his first USTCC race this past weekend.

The car and engine package are the real deal. TWE-built Irish Mikes motors were putting 270+HP to the wheels of their WorldChallenge RS. They did have reliability problems though.....


Jay Storm
Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 11:54 PM   #16
redwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2181
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: So Cal
Vehicle:
2008 SpecB
DGM

Default

Did anyone else notice that the couple of times the revs were allowed to drop below 2000, it sounded really lopey? I wonder just how wild those cams are...
redwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 01:28 AM   #17
zzyzx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 815
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2013 Boss 302 White
2000 2.5 RS Coupe Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redwagon
Did anyone else notice that the couple of times the revs were allowed to drop below 2000, it sounded really lopey? I wonder just how wild those cams are...
Were you at Hallet? No, the cams aren't wild as they have no overlap. The lopey sound you heard was a cold engine and fouled plugs. Unfortunately, we didn't catch onto the plug issue until too late... and since we didn't have the stock MAP/IAC sensor connected, there was no temp correction. Warm, and with properly functioning plugs, the car idles @ 900 RPM like stock. That said, the dyno sheet speaks for itself - cars with wild cams don't have nearly flat torque curves like we do.

Last edited by zzyzx; 09-20-2005 at 01:45 AM.
zzyzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 03:47 AM   #18
redwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2181
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: So Cal
Vehicle:
2008 SpecB
DGM

Default

No mate, and don't think I'm criticizing. 900rpm idle is outstanding, and only a supercharger would deliver big torque numbers right from off idle. The dyno graph is very impressive already, so no one would bitch about a little loss down low. I just heard the loping there and thought, "this would not pass the wife test". Wouldn't be very subtle at the stoplight either, and I'm a sleeper kinda guy. Glad to hear it was just a fouled plug etc. Running on an open header probably doesn't help the idle quality much either...
Amazing build, looking forward to hearing the full story.
redwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 11:12 AM   #19
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

While this is a very sweet race build, I don't see how this could be called streetable. I don't think it would pass the sniffer test, and the fact that they are obviously running a different ECU (based on comments about disconnected MAP/IAC) it isn't going to clear OBD testing. This is not to belittle this race car at all, but the thread title is misleading...
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 11:24 AM   #20
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default

How difficult is it to add a harness to switch to OBD-ECU just during testing time ?

Further, unlike most race builds that produce torque
only at high rpms and need a raised redline, this produces full torque from 2000 rpm onwards

Last edited by G.Subramaniam; 09-20-2005 at 11:39 AM. Reason: error correction
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 11:40 AM   #21
zzyzx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 815
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2013 Boss 302 White
2000 2.5 RS Coupe Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
While this is a very sweet race build, I don't see how this could be called streetable. I don't think it would pass the sniffer test, and the fact that they are obviously running a different ECU (based on comments about disconnected MAP/IAC) it isn't going to clear OBD testing. This is not to belittle this race car at all, but the thread title is misleading...
Correct. This is not a street car. If you have emissions tests that required OBD-II, it won't pass. I also don't consider it streetable just because of the octane requirements. That said, these are the only two things going against running it on the street. The power band, idle, and other characteristics are definately like a street car.

I hope to get the press release out today. I don't know that it'll answer all your questions, though.

It's pretty cool to hit 300 HP NA and not have to spin it up to 9000 RPM to do it and have a nearly flat torque curve to boot.

- Steve
zzyzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 11:59 AM   #22
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default

If you have emissions tests that required OBD-II, it won't pass.
---

How hard is it to make a harness to switch in the OBD-2 ECU
just prior to testing

---
I also don't consider it streetable just because of the octane requirements
----
I wonder if water spray cooling or a slightly less aggressive tune or torco unleaded for octane boost, will help get around detonation with 93 Octane
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 12:14 PM   #23
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

I am guessing that the compression is solidly into the 12's or even 13:1 and as such it is a race gas only build. Regardless, it is great to see an NA Ej25 break 300 chp...
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 12:48 PM   #24
G.Subramaniam
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 64528
Join Date: Jun 2004
Default

I wonder if a slightly de-tuned version of this with band-aids like
water-spray , Tocro, and a OBD-2 switchable harness could be streetable
G.Subramaniam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 01:20 PM   #25
kgb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1366
Join Date: Apr 2000
Chapter/Region: VIC
Location: Delta, BC, Canada
Vehicle:
2000 RS-T -> RSTi-8
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

I guess for races where turbo would have put you in a much tougher class, this is very good. Once you factor in OBD-II and the octane though, this is unworkable for daily driving - the power delivery is great for NA 2.5L, but the cost wouldn't be that much cheaper vs an RS-T (if at all, mind you I haven't tried calculating). I wonder what 94 octane + PEMS will do in terms of power and emission. Good work TWE
kgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
STI Makes world's longest car jump MUscooby General Community 11 05-05-2007 05:04 AM
WTB: TWE/Cobb/?? NA 2.5 DOHC Cams nils Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 2 11-04-2006 11:27 AM
1990 Legacy 2.2 NA parts car solo2wrx Private Vehicle 'For Sale' Classifieds 0 04-07-2006 12:27 PM
For Street Use is 2.5L NA better than STI G.Subramaniam Subaru Conversions 29 11-29-2004 10:12 AM
('93-'01) Does any car company make a tight car? Jon Bogert Impreza Forum 37 07-05-2001 09:33 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.