Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday September 17, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Motorsports

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-19-2005, 05:22 PM   #1
eurojax
Review Crew
 
Member#: 34269
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
Only marginally
funny.

Default

Posted this on OT

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurojax
RIP dude, just heard about this.


I really wish that they would release more info on how he died, maybe that will come later. Since I started liking rally 8 or so years ago, I've noticed that the rally organizations never release video/pictures/media about how the person died.

NASCAR is the opposite, I've seen Earnhardt eat it about 30 times. Lovell/Freeman was the same way, no information cept "Tree" and "Hit head on" were released.

I know it sounds like something noone would want to see, but, you have to think with all the safety considerations WRC and FIA go through to make the cars safe, what in gods name did Markko do that killed him?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
eurojax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2005, 09:16 PM   #2
Subie Gal
GC84Ever
Super Moderator
 
Member#: 301
Join Date: Sep 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: WA
Vehicle:
1970 FF-1 & '70 Van
02 WRX/01 RS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurojax
I really wish that they would release more info on how he died, maybe that will come later. Since I started liking rally 8 or so years ago, I've noticed that the rally organizations never release video/pictures/media about how the person died.

NASCAR is the opposite, I've seen Earnhardt eat it about 30 times. Lovell/Freeman was the same way, no information cept "Tree" and "Hit head on" were released.

I know it sounds like something noone would want to see, but, you have to think with all the safety considerations WRC and FIA go through to make the cars safe, what in gods name did Markko do that killed him?

you've been a fan of rally for 8 years?
and you have to ask this question?

*shakes head*

Lovell did not hit a tree head on.
(and yes, I was there - you have your "facts" wrong)

Markko did not hit a tree head on.

Park, Mark and Roger all died immediately of the same issue.
blunt. force. trauma.

when your internals are moving 100mph and the car suddenly stops
guess what?
your internals do not stop. they keep going.
I wont go into graphic details ,
but broken neck is just one of the major injuries immediately and fully sustained.

There is nothing any rally car perparer can do to prevent death in this case
nothing.

A side impact is the worst feared accident in ralling.
There is no method of preparation that one can do to prepare for this.
If you have a massive side impact at a high rate of speed... well.

Markko slid sideways into a tree at a good clip.
70-80mph from the looks of the still shot posted earlier.
he wasnt crawling. ...and you just dont survive accidents like that.

This has been horrible event.

My God it has to be awful for everyone involved.

The lack of coverage is out of respect.
respect for the families
respect for the team
respect for 100% rally fans

nobody wants to see that. i sure dont.

i hope this helps to clarify the 'mystery' for you
Jamie
Subie Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 07:23 PM   #3
eurojax
Review Crew
 
Member#: 34269
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Broomfield, CO
Vehicle:
Only marginally
funny.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie Gal
you've been a fan of rally for 8 years?
and you have to ask this question?

i hope this helps to clarify the 'mystery' for you
Jamie



It's not so much I want to see the scene. It's that I want to have an analysis on how he died. I used Earnhardt as an example, there were shows explaining what it is that killed him, that's what I'm looking for here. I don't want to see the actual wreck in progress, that's too morbid even for me, hell, the pics of the scene are enough to make my want to bawl like a little baby.

We've seen so many close calls in the past (Solberg flipping car, roof caving in on Mills) etc. I'm curious as to why someone died in this instance as opposed to the thousands of other wrecks that noone died or got injured in. Also, about Lovell and Freeman, that shows how little the deaths were explained. I still wonder what happened, the physics involved, etc.
eurojax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 07:45 PM   #4
Subie Gal
GC84Ever
Super Moderator
 
Member#: 301
Join Date: Sep 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: WA
Vehicle:
1970 FF-1 & '70 Van
02 WRX/01 RS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurojax
...I want to have an analysis on how he died.

We've seen so many close calls in the past (Solberg flipping car, roof caving in on Mills) etc. I'm curious as to why someone died in this instance as opposed to the thousands of other wrecks that noone died or got injured in. Also, about Lovell and Freeman, that shows how little the deaths were explained. I still wonder what happened, the physics involved, etc.
well i thought that i'd already explained that


it's like this.
80mph - into a tree = 160mph impact
- speed doubles when you hit something that abruptly, just like a head on collision -

this is not a rollover. flip. dip off the road.
this was like hitting a brick wall.
the worst kind of rally accident that can be had.

honestly, I am suprised Markko is alive.
I think that had the tree been larger, he'd be gone as well
Horrible stuff this is

want to learn more about physics... maybe take a class or something ???
i'm not being rude. i'm just not sure how else to explain it.

Jamie
Subie Gal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 08:10 PM   #5
adhowe70
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3363
Join Date: Dec 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Salem, Oregon
Vehicle:
1982 Reynard
Blue, Red, and White

Default

To echo what Jaime is saying, the more spectacular the high speed crash, generally the safer the high speed crash. Energy needs to be disipated in an accident. Car parts flying around or 16 flips end over end are good ways to do this. The energy that the car can't disipate must be taken care of by other things... skidding, tire walls, fences, etc. The left over energy is disipated by the occupants of the car, which is bad.

Further, energy increases with the square of the velocity. A car travelling 50mph has 4 times the kinetic energy of a car travelling 25mph. And 100mph has 16 times the energy as 25mph.

Lastly, the amount of time over which the energy is lost is important. A direct impact can disapate the energy in a very short time... very abruptly. A NASCAR rig sliding along the wall disipates the energy over a period of several seconds, gradually.

This was a direct impact into the passenger side door with no external energy disapation possible. The passengers take it all. This is as bad as it gets. Markko got lucky. Something about his seating position or maybe absolute luck saved his bacon.
adhowe70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2005, 08:31 PM   #6
meebs
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3251
Join Date: Dec 2000
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Lake Tapps, WA
Vehicle:
2009 WRX Hatch
DGM

Have a Nice Day?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
To echo what Jaime is saying, the more spectacular the high speed crash, generally the safer the high speed crash. Energy needs to be disipated in an accident. Car parts flying around or 16 flips end over end are good ways to do this. The energy that the car can't disipate must be taken care of by other things... skidding, tire walls, fences, etc. The left over energy is disipated by the occupants of the car, which is bad.

Further, energy increases with the square of the velocity. A car travelling 50mph has 4 times the kinetic energy of a car travelling 25mph. And 100mph has 16 times the energy as 25mph.

Lastly, the amount of time over which the energy is lost is important. A direct impact can disapate the energy in a very short time... very abruptly. A NASCAR rig sliding along the wall disipates the energy over a period of several seconds, gradually.

This was a direct impact into the passenger side door with no external energy disapation possible. The passengers take it all. This is as bad as it gets. Markko got lucky. Something about his seating position or maybe absolute luck saved his bacon.

Also, most deaths (in road cars anyway) happen at something like 35 mph, by the time you are done swerving braking etc. It takes very little speed to kill. I can't imagine hitting a tree at 80....
meebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 11:06 AM   #7
Kha0S
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8808
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Grantham, NH
Vehicle:
2011 WRX (DGM 5D)
2002 WRX/2003 SVTF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie Gal
want to learn more about physics... maybe take a class or something ???
i'm not being rude. i'm just not sure how else to explain it.
Jamie, with all due respect, your analysis fails to account for a number of issues in the incident... primarily that Markko suffered approximately the same deceleration as did Michael, but his injuries were minor. Intrusion into the passenger compartment and associated injuries were much more likely the culprit here.

I would like to see a thread started in here for frank, scientific discussion about the crash within the context of some of the others, but maintained separately such as not to have the "gawker" implication that some have made in this thread.

Earnhardt, and, to the best of my knowledge, Lovell and Freeman, all died of partial or complete basilar skull ring fractures around the foramen magnum. This incident seems to have very different dynamics, and the whip injury that caused the deaths of the other drivers should have been mostly prevented by HANS and helmet-retention seat designs that Martin and Park were using.

My condolences go out to Park's family, Markko, PSA, and all of his friends throughout the rallying community.

The Snell Memorial Foundation was founded after the unfortunate death of Pete Snell, and helmets have gone on to have rigorous design and testing standards applied to them. Similar standards must be defined for head restraint systems and cage/survival cell design, and it takes just this sort of tragedy to catalyze it.

/Andrew
Kha0S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 11:46 AM   #8
artkevin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 31097
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: The Sweaty H, TX
Vehicle:
2010 Acura ZDX
Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
Jamie, with all due respect, your analysis fails to account for a number of issues in the incident... primarily that Markko suffered approximately the same deceleration as did Michael, but his injuries were minor. Intrusion into the passenger compartment and associated injuries were much more likely the culprit here.

I would like to see a thread started in here for frank, scientific discussion about the crash within the context of some of the others, but maintained separately such as not to have the "gawker" implication that some have made in this thread.

Earnhardt, and, to the best of my knowledge, Lovell and Freeman, all died of partial or complete basilar skull ring fractures around the foramen magnum. This incident seems to have very different dynamics, and the whip injury that caused the deaths of the other drivers should have been mostly prevented by HANS and helmet-retention seat designs that Martin and Park were using.

My condolences go out to Park's family, Markko, PSA, and all of his friends throughout the rallying community.

The Snell Memorial Foundation was founded after the unfortunate death of Pete Snell, and helmets have gone on to have rigorous design and testing standards applied to them. Similar standards must be defined for head restraint systems and cage/survival cell design, and it takes just this sort of tragedy to catalyze it.

/Andrew
+1
As well intended as Jamie's explinations are I think they are a little too cut and dry. I can see exactly what eurojax is asking about and would like more info on the wreck with Park's familys feelings kept in mind. Not morbid, just curious.
artkevin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 11:54 AM   #9
CirrusWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 17439
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Yardley, PA
Vehicle:
2002 x2 Silver WRX
Sedan, White WRX Wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie Gal
well i thought that i'd already explained that


it's like this.
80mph - into a tree = 160mph impact
- speed doubles when you hit something that abruptly, just like a head on collision -

this is not a rollover. flip. dip off the road.
this was like hitting a brick wall.
the worst kind of rally accident that can be had.
I think eurojax brings up an excellent point and while I don't think you're being rude, I think you're incorrect in your assessement of the crash and letting emotion get in the way of a potentially valid conversation. I can understand your sorrow as this is your life (rally) and maybe this isn't the right thread for it, but the crash itself warrants discussion if it can help save lives in the future.

First, I think you're example isn't quite right. I don't mean to be a dick, but 80mph into a tree is not a 160mph "impact." It's 80mph into a tree. If you're traveling at 80mph and hit an identical CAR traveling 80mph in a head on collision, granted it's not the same as hitting a "brick wall" (or giant immovable oak tree) at 80mph in terms of "impact" because cars tend to deform, but it isn't all that DISimilar either. However is it NOTHING like hitting a brick wall or tree or another car at 160mph- speed doesn't "double" when you hit immovable objects compared to hitting things like parked cars or sapplings, nor does it if you were to hit somebody head on traveling the same speed with the same mass. An 80mph impact is an 80mph impact with the understanding that the object you impact has mass that can be less than, equal to, or greater than your mass.

I am in total agreement that the crash was the worst kind of crash there can be, just like the Earnhardt crash- it was the impulse that caused the death, or the integral of the the force over the time elapsed in addition to the change in momentum. I only have a a high-school understanding of physics but my understanding is that the less time it takes for you go from x to 0, the more likely you are to die, especially as X increases. So maybe I'm wrong here, but Eurojax brings up a valid argument that many people in this thread have glossed over: WHY IS MARKKO ALIVE? To me, that is a very important question that needs to be answered and investigated. It wasn't magic or luck, IMO, it must have had something to do with physics. Nobody has any detailed pictures of the accident (interior of the car) so we are only able to speculate, but IMO (uneducated, of course) I think Park got crushed or hit by the tree or cage; it wasn't simply the impact (impulse) of the whole car hitting the tree that killed him- the human body can withstand an amazing amount of g-forces before having your insides become liquified. If one is arguing that Park broke his neck instantly (the basal skull fracture thing) then why didn't Markko since the two of them basically experience the same g-forces for the duration of the crash. Why am I convinced that it wasn't just a typical Earnhardt type crash?

Because Markko was unhurt after the accident. I can understand how the impulse and force of the collision gets transferred AROUND the occupants in the car, through the cage, through the body panels, seats, seatbelts, dissapated in sound and heat, etc. but the car was relatively intact after the crash (not split in half or anything), which means that if it was a blunt force trauma as some have speculated, that means Markko would have also experienced nearly the exact same blunt force trauma as Park, and yet somehow, miraculously survived COMPLETELY unhurt? That's like saying Earnhardt would've died on impact, yet if he had a codriver, he/she would have been unhurt? Impossible.

As I posted above and in another thread, I feel nothing but sincere sorrow for the WRC community, Park's family and fans. But that doesn't mean we just sweep the crash under the carpet, call it a tragedy and reality of racing, and just move on. And wanting to know more about it doesn't make us morbid or souless- again, back to the Earnhardt example, after the crash was investigated HANS was routinely cited as a possible safety solution that MIGHT have kept him alive. It was hardly mentioned prior to his death. In fact, I would argue that HIS crash was THE #1 reason HANS et al are as popular as they are today.

My point? We can possibly learn something from this tragic event and somebody like Eurojax asking "what went wrong" deserves more of an answer than "they hit a tree." I disagree it was simply blunt force trauma that killed Park and my reasoning is because Markko wasn't injured. Perhaps there was a weakness in the design of the car or the cage? I don't know, but I would strongly argue that whatever forces that acted upon Park also acted upon Markko. I think the tree intruded into the passenger compartment either wholly or caused the cage to deform into the passenger compartment causing fatal injuries to the codriver. IF that's true (and it's only my wild speculation) then perhaps there could be improvements in cage design better to protect against side impact? Perhaps there should be a minimum separation of inches on all sides between occupant and cage? I don't know, but I bet we could learn something from it. Who knows, maybe if he was wearing a HANS or similar he would have lived. The bottom line is we really DON'T know. Maybe it's too soon for some to talk about this and for that I apologize, perhaps this could be moved to a new thread?
CirrusWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 11:56 AM   #10
CirrusWRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 17439
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Yardley, PA
Vehicle:
2002 x2 Silver WRX
Sedan, White WRX Wagon

Default

My apologies to the previous posters above - I took a long time to post (walked away from my desk) so I basically said what you already said.
CirrusWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 12:40 PM   #11
VpointVick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 93193
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte
Vehicle:
'90 Ishtbox Corolla
maroon, as in, I hope not

Default

IIRC HANS were required by the FIA for 2005.
VpointVick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 01:01 PM   #12
artkevin
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 31097
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: The Sweaty H, TX
Vehicle:
2010 Acura ZDX
Grey

Default

Well said CirrusWRX. I am all for an investigation into WHY it happened. We have to learn from or mistakes/misjudgeings/tradegies.
artkevin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 01:50 PM   #13
WagonMonster
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 3781
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Napa Valley
Vehicle:
2002 Legacy GT Wagon
2009 Forester X Limited

Default

Ok ladies.

Please talk/argue about the technical details of the crash here and leave the other thread as a memorial to Beef.

Thx
WagonMonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 01:54 PM   #14
TimStevens
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4817
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Albanyish, NY
Vehicle:
2012 STI, '02 WRX
'91 MR2, '05 Speed Triple

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artkevin
+1
As well intended as Jamie's explinations are I think they are a little too cut and dry. I can see exactly what eurojax is asking about and would like more info on the wreck with Park's familys feelings kept in mind. Not morbid, just curious.
Make that +2. i also would like to learn more about what happened. I think pictures can be left out, but IMHO something more than "slid into a tree" is warranted.
TimStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 01:54 PM   #15
Kha0S
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8808
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Grantham, NH
Vehicle:
2011 WRX (DGM 5D)
2002 WRX/2003 SVTF

Default

Good deal, thanks WagonMonster.

As far as I can tell from the photos that have been making the rounds and the (lack of) injuries to Martin, this appears to be a structural collapse, rather than a rapid deceleration injury.

I'm going to try and find some photos of the 307 cage design... the way that the roof and B-pillar crumpled looks like the upper halo, main hoop, and door bars all gave in from the energy.
Kha0S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 02:24 PM   #16
rallykeith
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 34989
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Reading PA
Vehicle:
06 2.5i wagon
88 RX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
Jamie, with all due respect, your analysis fails to account for a number of issues in the incident... primarily that Markko suffered approximately the same deceleration as did Michael, but his injuries were minor. Intrusion into the passenger compartment and associated injuries were much more likely the culprit here.
I don't want this to turn into a flame war or anything so lets all please be repectful when talking about this.

Kha0S, I think you are wrong in your assesment that Markko saw even approximately the same deceleration. Micheal had about 8" or less of what I'll call deceleration crumple before he was pressed up against the metal of the car that was touching the tree. I know that in my car my arm is pretty much pressed right against the roll cage, and the roll cage is only 1" away from the door panel. Markko on the other hand had the benefit of all the deceleration associated with the impact and car deformation. In a sence, with how little space there was between the tree and Micheal at impact, and at the speed they hit, it was as if Micheal hit the tree directly and instantly stopped, while Markko decelerated with the car.

Jamie was being very sincere in what she said. As Rallyist WE understand exactly what happened. We know it every time we get into our cars. I can understand how people that aren't directly involved with the sport wouldn't understand it the way we do. There really isn't much to examine in the cause of death, the only thing we can do is try to make the cars stronger for a side impact of this nature. Steps have been taken in the past after other incidents, but you can never account for everything.



Keith
rallykeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 02:35 PM   #17
TimStevens
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4817
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Albanyish, NY
Vehicle:
2012 STI, '02 WRX
'91 MR2, '05 Speed Triple

Default

I think, kieth, if anything you're backing up Andrew's point, that it was the tree's intrusion into the cage that is responsible for the fatality, not the decelleration. If purely the decelleration of the car hitting the tree were responsible, Markko and Michael would have received excatly the same force.
TimStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 02:59 PM   #18
bemani
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5673
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Folsom, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX/2005 LGT
09 Ducati M696/ZX6R

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimStevens
If purely the decelleration of the car hitting the tree were responsible, Markko and Michael would have received excatly the same force.
Not really. As someone mentioned, the space where Michael Park sat became additional crumple zone for Markko.
bemani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 02:59 PM   #19
Kha0S
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8808
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Grantham, NH
Vehicle:
2011 WRX (DGM 5D)
2002 WRX/2003 SVTF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rallykeith
Jamie was being very sincere in what she said. As Rallyist WE understand exactly what happened. We know it every time we get into our cars. I can understand how people that aren't directly involved with the sport wouldn't understand it the way we do.
I'd also just like to point out that I am a rallyist as well.

Knowledge of physics isn't connected to what motorsports you may or may not participate in.

Indeed, I think that Markko might have received a slightly slower deceleration than did Michael, but their injuries are at absolute opposite ends of the spectrum. My hunch (and it's only a hunch) is simply that the cage failed in the violence of the impact.

I know that stock car chassis use very serious door bar systems (which certainly inhibit ingress/egress) to protect against side impacts. I wonder if such a system would help maintain the integrity of the passenger compartment in an incident like this one (or like Petter's panzerplatte impact last year).

Last edited by Kha0S; 09-21-2005 at 03:08 PM.
Kha0S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 03:01 PM   #20
TimStevens
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4817
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Albanyish, NY
Vehicle:
2012 STI, '02 WRX
'91 MR2, '05 Speed Triple

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bemani
Not really. As someone mentioned, the space where Michael Park sat became additional crumple zone for Markko.
It's a moot point, but the reason he was in the "crumple zone" was because the tree intruded into the cage.
TimStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 03:44 PM   #21
rallykeith
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 34989
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Reading PA
Vehicle:
06 2.5i wagon
88 RX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha0S
I'd also just like to point out that I am a rallyist as well.
Sorry, the point about that wasn't directed at you. It was meant for the inquiring general public.

There is a lot that goes into it and there are many points to cover, but physics is still at the base. Right now your point/counter point is that the cage "failed." It could be said that the cage failed allowing the tree to intrude upon the pasanger compartment and caused Maicheals death. Now, the other end of the spectrum is what happens in the exact same crash if the cage were in fact strong enough to not allow intrusion. Because of the speed in volved in this situation BOTH occupants would have been instantly decelerated and most likely both would have died from blunt force trama. The key to survival is slowing the rate of deceleration. I feel strongly that this incident was an extreme case, and what some might look at as a failure of the cage causing one fatality is in fact what in turn prevented two fatalities.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue but offer more input and other views. I was running Ski Sawmill when Sean Kovacs was killed. I know the organizers and many people involved and was involved offline in many discussions about the incident and how the cage failed. A lot of the same things have come up before as are coming up now. That doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, but mearly that we still have things we can do better, and I think talking about it like this is a good start.

Keith
rallykeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 03:48 PM   #22
WRXMaster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 19131
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Las Vegas
Vehicle:
03/0 wrx/2.5rs
Black/blue

Default

The lack of padded side impact seats ... I think that was a factory "subaru has it " but the peugot didnt
WRXMaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 04:18 PM   #23
bjorn240
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17598
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NYC
Vehicle:
2009 Open Class
Subaru WRX STi

Default

There is some vast conjecture being thrown about in this thread...

First off, blunt force trauma is a catch-all term for any trauma caused by a blunt object (as opposed to a sharp object, like a knife). While blunt force trauma may be listed on a death certificate, the typical characteristics of blunt force trauma are lacerated or severed arteries, lacerated organs, crush injuries, and hematomas, any or all of which can be the cause of death.

As to the accident discussed, I think it is clear from the pictures that the cage was severely compromised and the tree intruded on the passenger compartment and that external trauma from the tree and door/cage was the likely cause of the fatal injuries.

There is little that can be done, given current rally car design, to protect against this type of intrusion. A roll cage derives most of its strength from its triangulated structure, and it is nearly impossible to triangulate from the center of the door to the middle of the car, as that space is taken up by the occupants. The only way to make a rally car safer in this direction is to make it wider and move the occupants closer to the center line.

As to whether Markko's injuries were minimized by a "crumple zone," this seems quite immaterial. Negative decelerations of 100G have been recorded in surviveable accidents, and a rally car accident rarely exceeds 30G. If you're tightly harnessed into your seat, control your head/neck movement, and do not suffer an external trauma, you can often handle a massive deceleration.

The 2005 Peugeot 307 had seats with head side-bolsters.

My thoughts are with Michael's family and with Markko and the entire Peugeot team.
- Christian
bjorn240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 04:18 PM   #24
rallykeith
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 34989
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Reading PA
Vehicle:
06 2.5i wagon
88 RX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXMaster
The lack of padded side impact seats ... I think that was a factory "subaru has it " but the peugot didnt
That would help. In the states we mandadted FIA approved cage padding for anywhere a helmet could hit, but that was all. Maybe adding it between the seat and the cage would be good.
rallykeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2005, 04:33 PM   #25
Ver.III
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1185
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: North of the border
Vehicle:
I flap my gums
and now I'm a specialist

Default

Its very difficult to determine/design a rally car/cage that can withstand impacts such this case. As to Petter's crash in Germany, WRC cages were never meant to impact a tank barrier. You can compare this to NASCAR cages , but that is I think more a "controlled" enviroment. In any case, I don't think even wearing a HANS or seat head side restraints would have done anything in such a direct side impact.
Ver.III is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gearbox technical discussion RalliSpec Transmission (AT/MT) & Driveline 123 12-31-2013 11:27 AM
technical discussion of $2 boost mod 2manycarz Forester Forum 14 12-23-2006 11:05 PM
An EJ22T, USDM WRX intake, and my 2005 RS... a technical discussion Crashsector Subaru Conversions 3 07-25-2006 04:40 PM
STi Technical Discussions... We should move to NASIOC Technical rlavalle STi Forum Archive 4 08-29-2003 12:14 AM
Call for *technical* discussion of the new Wilwood 4 pot kit being sold Concillian Brakes, Steering & Suspension 44 06-01-2002 12:52 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.