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Old 09-23-2005, 01:54 AM   #1
dypeterc
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Angry prevent ol/cl delay?

Is there any way to prevent the ECU from "learning" the opon-loop/closed-loop delay that's been reported in these forums? And I'm not talking about reflashing the ECU with another tune (Cobb Stg 1). I don't want to spend $600 on something that should be right in the first place.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:26 AM   #2
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yeah, have someone with a tactrix table flash the modded map onto your ECU for free. Otherwise, NO. It is something that is "built in" to the ECU, your car isn't going to learn it.
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Old 09-23-2005, 12:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmah
yeah, have someone with a tactrix table flash the modded map onto your ECU for free. Otherwise, NO. It is something that is "built in" to the ECU, your car isn't going to learn it.

where can i find more info on tactrix??
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dypeterc
I don't want to spend $600 on something that should be right in the first place.
There's nothing "wrong" with the delay unless you're planning to do some modifications.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteDucati
There's nothing "wrong" with the delay unless you're planning to do some modifications.

I beg to differ. It can be a pretty long delay. 3 - 4s is wrong.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyImprezive
I beg to differ. It can be a pretty long delay. 3 - 4s is wrong.
There is nothing "wrong" with it. It works the way it was intended to. As long as your car is stock you have nothing to worry about. If you start messing with intakes, downpipes, or an MBC.. then you need a reflash. And yes, I had an EGT gauge on my car while the ECU was still virgin - EGTs never got high enough to cause concern.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyImprezive
I beg to differ. It can be a pretty long delay. 3 - 4s is wrong.
I was under the same impression. The sticky above caused a bit of concern for me. My car only has a hundred miles on it. Do you notice it when new or does this problem occur over time? You would think that the ECU would try to keep the AFR as close to 14.7:1 at all times. PeteDucati, are you saying that during these 3-4s, where the car isn't running as effeciently as possible, that it's not a problem? To me that sounds like a problem
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dypeterc
PeteDucati, are you saying that during these 3-4s, where the car isn't running as effeciently as possible, that it's not a problem? To me that sounds like a problem
That delay keeps the car in closed loop longer.. at 14.7:1. Which is more efficient but can lead to higher EGTs. Your car will get better fuel mileage and burn cleaner.. where is the problem?

14.7:1 under loads of boost for a long time is the "problem". But the 3-4 seconds wasn't a problem with my car. Before getting reflashed I had a TBE, shortram, and TMIC. EGTs never rose higher than 900 clesius.
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteDucati
There is nothing "wrong" with it. It works the way it was intended to. As long as your car is stock you have nothing to worry about. If you start messing with intakes, downpipes, or an MBC.. then you need a reflash. And yes, I had an EGT gauge on my car while the ECU was still virgin - EGTs never got high enough to cause concern.
Detonation, and IAM of 3, and high EGT on a stock car. 2+ seconds of high boost at stoich. A warranty replacement of all three cats on a stock car. I am sure this was intended... Why am I thinking of the N.O. Walmart clip with the cops looting? "I don't see anything here..."
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:57 PM   #10
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PeteDucati, what year is your car?

If it's an 04 up, you didnt notice the MASSIVE surge at 5k rpm's? That is not how the car should be operating.
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bofh
Detonation, and IAM of 3, and high EGT on a stock car. 2+ seconds of high boost at stoich. A warranty replacement of all three cats on a stock car. I am sure this was intended... Why am I thinking of the N.O. Walmart clip with the cops looting? "I don't see anything here..."
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:51 PM   #12
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I can completely remove the delay with ECutek flash. I just tuned an 04 Stg4 car and with the new Ecutek software I can remove the delay all together. Its instant Switch. I can also raise the Cruise AFR to 15.2 for more mileage. Users are reporting 1-2mpg increase. Also available is radiator fan control for all four major functions. I am seeing 5 degrees colder temps and colder AC. Another exciting feature is the enrichment tables are now available. When you press the throttle an extra few pulses of fuel is sprayed. If you go to larger injectors this enrichment is to much. After recalibration I have noticed a HUGE increase in engine response. No more of that soft sluggish feeling when passing. I understand you dont want to buy a flash but to do this right it might be the only option.

Clark
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Old 09-23-2005, 07:59 PM   #13
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Not to shoot you in the foot Clark, but there are free solutions to removing the CL/OL delay out of 04+ cars. If he doesn't want a performance flash then it's not worth $600 for a flash.
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Old 09-23-2005, 08:04 PM   #14
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They dont remove all of the features you need to kill all of the delay. Maybe they will one day but for now all that is found is partial removal.

Clark
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98
Not to shoot you in the foot Clark, but there are free solutions to removing the CL/OL delay out of 04+ cars. If he doesn't want a performance flash then it's not worth $600 for a flash.
JRS, I've been looking for this type of solution. Can you direct me to these free solutions?
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Old 09-24-2005, 02:27 AM   #16
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www.kastleskorner.com has a small electronic fix that removes the OL/CL feature that was/is made by the user Vaus on here. Email Kastle and see if they still sell it or not. I think it was $35 or something small like that.
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Old 09-24-2005, 07:19 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScoobie
They dont remove all of the features you need to kill all of the delay. Maybe they will one day but for now all that is found is partial removal.

Clark
Just out of curiousity, have your tried the reflash?

I've done a pretty good amount of testing/logging and the delay seems to be gone. I checked for a few things- AFR's didn't abruptly change from stoich to enrich and 'jump' across the fueling table too quickly. Feeling the switchover is something that I thought was unacceptible too. The transition occurs smoothly at both part throttle and WOT.

Also, who is the 'they' that you are speaking of? Cobb? Openecu.org?

Also, this fueling delay was a bad decision on Subaru's part. Inconsistent performance, lack of power, surging, det and 1700 degree EGTs on a STOCK car are not things that I would look for. Subaru really screwed the pooch with this on, IMO. Once removed, most people say the car 'feels like it should have from the factory.' Throttle response is a ton better, there is no more hesitation or surging.

Thanks!
Mike

Last edited by crazymikie; 09-24-2005 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:24 PM   #18
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They fueling delay wasn't Subaru's decision, it is a mandate by the EPA for cleaner burning cars. The MUST do it, so blame the tree huggers at the EPA.
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
They fueling delay wasn't Subaru's decision, it is a mandate by the EPA for cleaner burning cars. The MUST do it, so blame the tree huggers at the EPA.
Thanks, Unabomber, for the link.
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Old 09-25-2005, 12:12 AM   #20
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Seems like CrazyMikie has a working solution. Anyone interested should ask him more about it. I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.
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Old 09-25-2005, 09:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie
Just out of curiousity, have your tried the reflash?

I've done a pretty good amount of testing/logging and the delay seems to be gone. I checked for a few things- AFR's didn't abruptly change from stoich to enrich and 'jump' across the fueling table too quickly. Feeling the switchover is something that I thought was unacceptible too. The transition occurs smoothly at both part throttle and WOT.

Also, who is the 'they' that you are speaking of? Cobb? Openecu.org?

Also, this fueling delay was a bad decision on Subaru's part. Inconsistent performance, lack of power, surging, det and 1700 degree EGTs on a STOCK car are not things that I would look for. Subaru really screwed the pooch with this on, IMO. Once removed, most people say the car 'feels like it should have from the factory.' Throttle response is a ton better, there is no more hesitation or surging.
Thanks!
Mike
So, I assume there still is a delay on the 02/03s just not as bad as the 04+? If so, could any ECUTEK tuner remove the delay? Is this a common procedure? What should I tell them to do to remove it specifically with ECUTEK?
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Old 09-25-2005, 11:01 AM   #22
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There is still transition logic in the 02/03 ECUs, however, it is a bit different than the 04's. If I were to oversimplify, on the 02/03, you need a higher TPS and the transition will happen quicker. On the 04/05, you need a lower TPS to being the transition, however, there is the dreaded delay before the transition finalizes and the car goes into open loop.

I haven't done much tuning on 02/03 WRXs, however, I'd guess lowering the TPS switchover value would yield some better throttle response, based on what I've seen on the 04/05s. On the reflash I've been doing, I lower the TPS and make the transition quick. This seems to smooth things out so it is not noticeable, and makes the car feel a whole lot more responsive.

From the data I've collected so far, it seems like everyone is seeing similar or better gas mileage to the original programming. The only thing I can think of is since the car is making better power from the fact it can run richer fueling earlier, and as a result, people are on the gas less. This is very noticeable on the highway in 4th and 5th gears.

In any case, I think both EcuTek and Cobb software will allow you to modify the delay parameters to you or your tuner's liking.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Mike
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Old 09-25-2005, 11:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adg016
Seems like CrazyMikie has a working solution. Anyone interested should ask him more about it. I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.
I'd definitely be interested- I'm trying to work with people local to me right now- I like to flash the car and take a bunch of logs to make sure everything is okay before sending people off. When I get some more data, I'll post the flash up on openecu.org. I could put all kinds of 'no warranty' disclaimers on it, however, I'd rather it just work the first time.

Thanks
Mike
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Old 09-25-2005, 12:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
They fueling delay wasn't Subaru's decision, it is a mandate by the EPA for cleaner burning cars. The MUST do it, so blame the tree huggers at the EPA.

IIRC wasn't there a loophole in the mandate, something about performance vehicles being exempt. . .the STi has no such delay. . .and subaru CHOSE to place the delay on the wrx.
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Old 09-25-2005, 08:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaeater69
IIRC wasn't there a loophole in the mandate, something about performance vehicles being exempt. . .the STi has no such delay. . .and subaru CHOSE to place the delay on the wrx.
Evidently there is a "rule" or such in place that a manufacturer can elect one vehicle to be exempt- they chose the STi -that's the way it was explained to me- previously 02/03 WRX held this distinction.

For any doubting Thomas's on it's negative effect- I've seen my AM bomb from a full 16 to a lowly 3 or 4 in a single 3rd gear pull. Also audibly heard detonation.

If you have a 04+ you should seriously consider altering this delay- stock or not.
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