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Old 09-23-2005, 10:49 AM   #1
Assassin4457
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Default FAT Turbo Kit for 1999 Impreza 2.5 RS

I found this turbo kit on the net the other day and I was wondering on your opinions on it. This is about the 3rd or 4th ive found and this one looks the most promising. Is anyone running this kit? I have many follow up questions coming, but I just need to know what you guys think first. I got TONS of EMS questions coming.

Well this GAY system isn't letting me post a URL , but its from Forced Air Technologies, and its the Impreza GC8 Kit. Im looking at the stage 3 with the GTR30 Turbo.
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Last edited by Assassin4457; 09-23-2005 at 10:57 AM. Reason: mistake
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:08 AM   #2
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I would suggest waiting 3-4 months for Ralliteks turbo kit, it will be a slightly better kit at a lower price, (around $3000 for the kit).

More info at www.rallitekforums.com

Last edited by Sko; 09-23-2005 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:24 AM   #3
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Well, here's the thing. All those Stages are going to let you run the same ammount of boost. about 6 PSI. They've just got different turbo's and the stage 1 doesn't have a TMIC. The GT30 is going to spool up faster than the T04s, and can support higher boost levels.

What you need to ask yourself is, What is my goal for horsepower AND reliability. The kit comes with everything you need to run 6 PSI, but not anymore. On stock internals, pushing any boost is playing with fire so you have to do it right the first time or you will be searching for a new motor. EM is key here, for the highest security go with a Stand Alone like the Hydra, but most people do ok with some type of Piggy Back EM.

For the price of that kit, you could always get a WRX Swap done.
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:36 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sko
I would suggest waiting 3-4 months for Ralliteks turbo kit, it will be a better kit at a lower price, (around $3000 for the kit).

More info at www.rallitekforums.com
how is it a better kit? what engine managment and components does it use? do you know much about turbo systems, just wondering your background to make that claim.

Ben
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:52 AM   #5
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also, xeleventybillion on the fact that EMS is key.

Ben
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Old 09-23-2005, 12:33 PM   #6
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If I'm not mistaken, I've been hearing about this rallitek kit for over a year now, every time someone mentions it they say it's 3-4months away. I wouldn't count on it being only a few months away. just my .02
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Old 09-23-2005, 12:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHATsuby
how is it a better kit? what engine managment and components does it use? do you know much about turbo systems, just wondering your background to make that claim.

Ben
Well if you would go to the link and read on their forums then you would know why it is a better kit and you would know more about turbos. Anyways, I'm getting a prototype of their kit installed on my car as soon as I can and they say I'll have to go a week without my car, but I'm alright with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damonmlime
If I'm not mistaken, I've been hearing about this rallitek kit for over a year now, every time someone mentions it they say it's 3-4months away. I wouldn't count on it being only a few months away. just my .02
I don't know how long you've been hearing about it for, but only recently (about a week ago) has there been a public post on rallitek's forums from rallitek in the news section about the release of the kit, this leads me to believe they are serious. They said after they've had 3 kits running for 3 months or more then they will feel it's ready for retail.

Nick
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:54 PM   #8
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Wonder why it takes a week? I made my kit from scratch in a weekend- about 14 hours total.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:57 PM   #9
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Im sorry I should have been more specific with what im trying to attain. Im looking for just 300 hp and 300 lbs of Torque at the wheels from my upgrades. Im not trying to make this some drag monster with 600 hp or anything like that. But the key here is reliability for me. I dont want to run more than 10 - 12 lbs of boost if possible on the stock motor (I hear it is possible) and i would have a considerably lower boost mode for day to day driving, say about 5 - 6 psi. As for engine management, im looking at the RRFPR included in the kit, probably a Greddy Emanage EMS (I havent made my decision on which one yet, but something in that range) and also I want the J&S Safeguard system (or something equivalent) which is a knock sensor and safeguard device that retards timing to an individual cilinder if lean conditions are detected.

Now, is my goal realistic, and will this kit do the job? (I hear the turbo can support 500 hp, so i dont think I will need to upgrade the turbo itself, but later on I want to play with the kit and incorporate any other components that would help.
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Old 09-23-2005, 01:59 PM   #10
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yea, I did go on the site and read and all I saw was a couple components tack welded together and a strange looking TMIC that must be good cause another "REALLY expensive" IC is similar to it.

Don't get me wrong I am sure it will do the job just fine, but to say its better for less? I wouldnt jump to that conclusion just yet, I understand you are probably getting a good deal and are excited about it going on but so far from reading the site, its just another kit to me, and the fabrication does not look even close to the level of FAT's stuff, and I dont even own FAT's kit i had a competitors so I am not praising them because I have it.

but thats just me.

Ben
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:35 PM   #11
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I understand where your coming from Ben, I just have an opinion that for 3k you getting a fast spooling turbo capable of 400hp and a decent intercooler is a better package than another kit without an intercooler and with a bigger turbo for the same price.

Nick

Last edited by Sko; 09-23-2005 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:58 PM   #12
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What do u guys think? Do you think I can reach my goal? What do u think of my choice of EMS components?
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sko
I understand where your coming from Ben, I just have an opinion that for 3k you getting a fast spooling turbo capable of 400hp and a decent intercooler is a better package than another kit without an intercooler and with a bigger turbo for the same price.

Nick
indeed, an IC to no IC is a better deal, i was looking at 3900 vs 3500, if it does in fact cost 3000, that is an even better deal, the biggest selling point if it works well is the engine management for the rallitek kit, if its good, it will be a hit.

Ben
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin4457
What do u guys think? Do you think I can reach my goal? What do u think of my choice of EMS components?
I don't know, For one your going to need injectors to reach that goal. Just raising fuel pressure won't be enough. Also you'll want some colder spark plugs.

I'm really not sure if that EM will be enough, personally I would put on a Hydra before even 1 PSI of boost touched my motor...Thats just me though
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:26 PM   #15
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I keep hearing about this hydra, but I know I will need the injectors (I think max u can run on the 2.5 RS is 6 psi without new injectors but im not sure). Can anyone give me the link on where to go looking for this hydra or whatever? Im curious about its capabilities, is it something Subaru Specific? (i think someone mentioned that in another forum)

And as far as injectors go, what would be my best option? Are there any specific aftermarket injectors that you guys would recommend? Or would I be looking at getting some STi injectors or some off another scooby?
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:32 PM   #16
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http://www.hydraems.com/home/

Also you could probably get base maps from Phil, in the Engine Management forums.

Also for fuel, can't go wrong with upgraded fuel rails AND injectors.
http://www.outbackmotors.com/fuel_rail_setup.htm

I'm not sure what type of injectors the SOHC motors take
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:48 PM   #17
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IMO, my setup is ideal, http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805127 if you are looking for a setup.

all that stuff cost over 7k, the Autronic is one of the best engine management systems out there, works great, also has autotune capabilities full stand alone, temp correction, anti-lag, boost control, preset subaru triggers. etc....
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:35 PM   #18
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i am tremendoiusly suprised that there is another turbo kit on the market ...

they are more expensive and far far less reliable then a usdm/cdm wrx swap ...
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxx
i am tremendoiusly suprised that there is another turbo kit on the market ...

they are more expensive and far far less reliable then a usdm/cdm wrx swap ...
True, but the turbo'ed EJ25 is going to be faster for a given hp level due to the extra torque and off-boost power (due to the higher CR and higher displacement).

Personally as an autocrosser, I'd actually consider a 2.5L FXT/LGT/STi swap, but a 2.0L WRX swap seems pointless to me since I'd lose displacement along with the accompanying torque curve. A properly managed low-pressure turbo kit would let me keep my higher displacement, higher CR off-boost characteristics but still with significantly more power than in N/A form.

Not to mention, the 1999 EJ25 engine seems to take boost quite a bit better than the 2000+ EJ25 engines (with their redesigned higher CR pistons). Almost every one of the turbo'ed EJ25 horror stories I've heard in the past couple years is a 10:1 CR engine (and most are running bone stock engine management as well).

Honestly, I'd still rather have a supercharger kit (which would be even better for autocross conditions), but every one of them seems to be in a perpetual state of "in development".

Shane -- SM 729
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:03 PM   #20
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Forgive me as I write a book here.....

The rallitek kit will be far far far far more capable than any of the other kits out there as a complete solution. That being said I am not sure if its features are exactly what you want in your quest for 300 whp. The rallitek kit mounts an aditional injector on the car. They use a moderatly sized injector and a birdy told my that they are only seeing about 30-40% duty cycle on this injector tuned at 6 psi. That means it definitely could support 10psi maybe 12psi without more injectors. Say its a 550cc injector. (550 + 4x280)/4 = 418cc if you have they all around. I reach the limit of my 380cc WRX injectors at about 11psi (granted I have a much smaller T3 60 turbo). The strength of the Rallitek kit and what makes it different from any other kit out there is that it maintains the stock ecu and does it WELL. The PP takes over all fueling with respect to boost on the adittional injector. The PP also has the ability to drive 4 injector not just one. So if you wanted to go nutz with the piggyback type setup you could custom boss 4 injectors into the intake manifold on each runner and PP could handle the load.

Now 12psi might net you (with a custom tune by someone who knows PP, and there are a select few of them.) about 300 Crank HP, but as far as 300 Whp.. forget it. WRC 555 made about 300whp at ~16psi peak with a t3/t4 (unsure of trim) on a stock block with link+ ems. The good news about AVO is that the turbo han handle the power you want to make, as can the GT30 obviously. Thats a big step.

Now If you went with a bigger injector or more injectors fuel wouldn't be a problem, you would maintain stock drivability off boost (assuming whoever tuned you car knows VERY well how and when the stock ECU makes fueling corrections in closed loop and how to aviod it. There are a select few of those people as well. And a few tuners at rallitek are definitly some of those few) They might be able to make it happen with PP for you although 300whp is a tall order anywhere especially with the stock ecu is there and even more so with a stock block.

There are a few of us that enjoy pushing the limits of the stock ecu and stock block. I have learned a ton from tuning... and retuning... and checking all the time... and buying more monitoring and datalogging epuipment... and then some more. I love to do it and if thats your cup of tee, pushing the limit of the stock block then go ahead get the rallitek kit and a bigger injector and have them tune away. There have been RSts on stock blocks that have made 300hp on quality dynos, but I doubt there has been more than one or two that had a stock block, and I doubt there has been even one that retained the stock ecu.


all that being said if you were smart (and I don't consider myself in that category obviously...) you would forget the stock block and the stock ecu entirely from the getgo. Get a standalone EMS - STI shortblock - valve springs and retainers - and see if a good tuner can get you there.

If you are set on the FAT kit. Do it. Its a great turbo and a great setup. Just please please forget about the RRFPR. As soon as you get it sell it off and buy an Emanage Blue or ultimate if you can swing it. I actually am using a greddy emanage ultimate on my car and its fantastic. It's in my opinion vastly more powerful than anything piggyback that has ever been on the market with the exception of TXS Utec, but that is WRX only.


Cliff notes:

1. Rallitek (AVO) is more of a complete solution for you up to about 250ish whp. After that you are gong to need a good dyno and a great tuner to keep you reliable. It will need contrant monitoring and a good knock detector to tell you when the tune needs work or when to back off on a hot day.

2. FAT + Standalone will be alot more work and alot more money but with the addition of a STI shortblock and various other money sucking add ons you will most certainly reach that 300whp mark reliably.

You would be wise to buy PHATsuby's kit. Autronic is IMO the best standalone you can buy for a sube. If #2 is what your after - its a good choice. After modding his WRX injectors / and getting a STI shortblock you would really be in a good place. The piping that coes with his kit will accept a Garret GT series turbo without any modification if you felt the need to just buy a big new turbo, but the t3/t4 would surely do it.

Todd
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Old 09-24-2005, 10:02 PM   #21
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^^^^very good advice, not just the part about buying my stuff, the whole thing

the rallitek proven power is supposed to be fairly capable, but yea, i have no idea why they would use a 5th injector, that is more "band aid" style, especially if the proven power is capable of doing a good job and can adapt to larger injectors.

IMO, when doing AFI, stand alone is a must, thats just me, you can do it with less and be fine and lots have, but that is where a lot of problems come from and complaints with having an aftermarket turbo kit, if you setup closed loop control on my autronic you can have a stock reliable and functioning car.

Ben
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Old 09-24-2005, 10:35 PM   #22
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PHATsuby, actually it makes a ton of sense why they would go with seconday injection instead of replacing all the injectors. I am very impressed and excited to see how these kits work out. I think we are going to alot more well tuned reliable cars out there.

1. Cost

2. Stock Drivability & Fuel Economy is maintained and tuning is simplified 100% over upgrading injectors. This is espectially good because the majority of people getting this kit will be learning to tune it thenselves, so ease of tuning is definitely a must.

3. With the MY00-up cars being MAP based, the only way to effectively tune out bigger injectors is with a complicated mix of voltage clamps such that the stock sensor never sees high voltage, and the ems still has the ability to alter the signal to provide the needed fueling changes to the car.

This is why SAFCs, etc arn't recomended for turbo MAP cars (or really MAP cars in general). If you think about it what happens when this car hits boost? Obviously the sensor runs out of resolution and then what? Now you have no ability to tune fuel because pulling back on the signal just results in fighting the voltage clamp as the signal will simply rise back to the clamp. The only way to do it is by applying a voltage clamp before AND after the piggyback such that you can go up and down from the initial clamped value to adjust fuel. You are then limited by that inital clamp as to the level of tuning that you can do and god knows what clamping the sensor at such a low voltage will do to the stock mapping. Therefore by far the best solution to apply a good piggyback for NA MAP cars is to use secondary injectors, and AVO has a cheap and reliable way to supply that which is great.

So PP takes the fueling over and now has the ability to map it with respect to a boost sensor than can read into boost AND have more fuel in reserve for boost spikes and further tuning if needed.

side note:
Now that the emanage Ultimate is here and we can now cut down the IDC directly after the ECU to deal with bigger injectors MAP cars will have an easier time with replacing the OEM injecotrs, but AVO has committed to using PP so they are locked in.

Todd
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Old 09-24-2005, 11:15 PM   #23
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Ok good, I was wondering if I would have to upgrade my injectors or not, looks like they are including the secondary injectors into the kit and PP will just control that one big boy injector to give more/less fuel... I dunno though...

Having 5 fuel injectors... sounds kinda like having a third nipple or something... hehe...

Nick
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:04 AM   #24
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Hitokiri-you are right, it does make sense for the masses for sure and makes tuning easier with their specific platform(possibly others as well depending on how they are setup). I guess I just like the false comfort and kid myself I have precise control over 4 scaled injectors, haha.

Ben
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Old 09-25-2005, 12:14 PM   #25
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Ralliteks kit is coming along. Slowly, but it is coming along. I know cause I am building the jig for the downpipe. Their biggest problem is just lack of time. The guys working on the kit are also have to work at their regular dailey jobs there.
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