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Old 09-24-2005, 10:26 AM   #1
Kevin Thomas
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Default Ebay intake Strikes Again

I finally purchased one of these for my Outback Sport just to see how it fits and runs with it. My Outback Sport seems to like it. However, testing the lbs/min of air going into the intake with my Pocketlogger indicates that it flows less air than my Minnam intake. I dyno tested this with another Ebay intake owner's intake previously and it their Ebay intake BLEW my Minnam away.

I can not post my Pocketlogger information here because I do not know how to converter Palm Database files to a format suitable for viewing (If you know, send me a PM).

Anyhow, my Minnam intake sucks in 1.02lb/min of air at 2200rpm and 12.44lb/min at 5700rpm for instance. The Ebay intake sucks in 0.59lb/min of air a 2200rpm and 12.10lb/min of air at 5700rpm. In other words, it sucked in noticably less air at the same rpm than my Minnam intake. However, it had more torque, especially on the low end. (I'm running 93 octane because the Wawa I get my gas at ran out of 87 and 89 octane the last time I filled up my OBS. 93 Octane was at 87 octane price). I think the torque came from the fact that with the Minnam intake, only had between 20-25 degrees of time around 2200rpm. With the Ebay intake, I had 38-40 degrees of timing.

I'm not saying that intakes affect timing. I'm just saying that was my result after switching the intakes and running the tests again with the Pocketlogger. If you know how to convert PDB files, send me a PM. In the meantime, the Ebay intake is going to stay on for now.

Ebay intake:


Pic on the same day of the Minnam intake I took off.

Yeah, it's ugly but it was only $20.00 used.
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:26 PM   #2
shoeler25
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Could the less air being inducted have anything to do with the fact the ebay one appears to be shorter piping? Or smoother bends, so the flow into the manifold is greater with the ebay one, where the minnam one loses some flow around that curve? Where were you taking that data, near the filter or manifold?
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Old 09-24-2005, 12:26 PM   #3
Nicklbrso
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Ever try a CAI?
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Old 09-24-2005, 02:04 PM   #4
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There's simply no way that the tiny extra bend will sap that much low-end flow. Something sure doesn't seem right about this.

I'd like to know why the timing was so different. Was the testing done the same? Same load (if any), same operating temperature, etc.?
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Old 09-24-2005, 02:13 PM   #5
Lethargic1
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I applaud you man for doing tests like these. They really help out the community.
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Old 09-24-2005, 03:31 PM   #6
Kevin Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
I'd like to know why the timing was so different. Was the testing done the same? Same load (if any), same operating temperature, etc.?
Same stretch of road, same day, only about an hour apart. I didn't even reset the computer. Just took the intake off and installed this Ebay one with the same air filter as my old intake. It's not all said and done. Some more testing will have to take place when I stop being lazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklbrso
Ever try a CAI?
Nope! Not on this car. I can always try some cheap tubing and such to see how it goes. I tested a CAI against a 'hot-air' intake on my Subaru XT6 and the 'hot-air' JC Sports intake did better than the CAI (A homemade Cobb piece). Perhaps that has to do with the Cobb/PRM air filter not having a lot of surface area. I dunno but it is what it is.
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Old 09-24-2005, 03:43 PM   #7
Kevin Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoeler25
Where were you taking that data, near the filter or manifold?
The Pocketlogger is software that is installed on my Palm Pilot.
http://www.digitaltuning.com/index.php?pid=plobdii
You purchase the software with a serial cable to connect to the OBDII port. From this you can gather data like fuel trim, O2 sensor reading, timing, airflow, rpm, speed, etc.
It is just a pain to convert the PDB (Palm Database Files) to a visable format for me to share rather than just looking at it on the Palm Pilot. There are ways to do this but I haven't tooled with this for years. I was just bored so I installed some batteries in the Palm pilot to gather some data.
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Old 09-24-2005, 05:43 PM   #8
Kostamojen
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I think its because of the two kinks in that Ebay intake... One by the throttle, and the other by the MAF adapter. That minnam has a nice, smooth curve and flow to it without changing the internal diameter of the intake.
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Old 09-24-2005, 07:41 PM   #9
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I had an ebay Intake (RS TYPE) and I only noticed a tiny bit of power at around 4500 to around 5500 RPM's and then it was time to shift.. needless to say I took it off my car and put back the stock intake with a K&N drop in filter and I feel more low end power now around 2000 to about 3000, IMO it makes more sence to me since I really dont bring the car up to 5500 RPMs around town so this seems to work better for me. By the way has any got a dyno sheet for the K&N filter on a 1.8 impreza L here they could post up?
Mike
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:43 PM   #10
Kevin Thomas
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I just realized that this intake is a different shape than the one I dyno'd a while back in this post.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=ebay+intake

The one I dyno'd in that thread had significant gains. This is what it looked like.

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Old 09-24-2005, 11:17 PM   #11
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damn, i love the green engine bling
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Old 09-25-2005, 02:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
The one I dyno'd in that thread had significant gains. This is what it looked like.

See, no kinks.
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Old 09-26-2005, 10:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
I just realized that this intake is a different shape than the one I dyno'd a while back in this post.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=ebay+intake

The one I dyno'd in that thread had significant gains. This is what it looked like.

lol thats the exact same intake i have. its nice, but loud.

since were on the subject...can i quiet it a bit and should i mount the intake air temp sensor INSIDE the tube?
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Old 09-26-2005, 02:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
The Pocketlogger is software that is installed on my Palm Pilot.
http://www.digitaltuning.com/index.php?pid=plobdii
You purchase the software with a serial cable to connect to the OBDII port. From this you can gather data like fuel trim, O2 sensor reading, timing, airflow, rpm, speed, etc.
So, you're not actually measuring airflow, you're measuring MAF readings. The MAF readings will be different if you change the intake, but that has nothing to do with how much air is actually being sucked into the intake. This is why aftermarket engine management is so important. If the MAF could acurately determine the actual airflow, intake tuning woes cease to exist.

Is the 02 sensor showing a lean condition when you run the intake that shows less airflow?
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:41 PM   #15
Kevin Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy
Is the 02 sensor showing a lean condition when you run the intake that shows less airflow?
I dunno! I didn't test out the voltmeter voltage of the O2 sensor to compare it before and after intake installation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy
So, you're not actually measuring airflow, you're measuring MAF readings. The MAF readings will be different if you change the intake, but that has nothing to do with how much air is actually being sucked into the intake. This is why aftermarket engine management is so important. If the MAF could acurately determine the actual airflow, intake tuning woes cease to exist.
So the Mass Airflow Sensor does not measure airflow? I'm confused!

http://autorepair.about.com/library/.../bldef-496.htm
Mass Airflow Sensor
"Definition: A device used in many fuel injected engines to measure the amount of air entering the engine so the computer can control the air/fuel mixture."

http://fordfuelinjection.com/index.php?p=26
Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF)
"The Mass Air Flow sensor of MAF measures two things. It measures grams or air per second consumed by the engine for calculating fuel ratio."
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:38 PM   #16
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I got the same intake as u do, Kevin! Hey I just thought of something... Judging from where the filter is at, it's probalby sucking in hot engine bay air. What if you were to drive around with the hood popped?? The filter would b in the perfect spot to get a hit of outside air, plus the latch will keep it from opening all the way while ur driving! Hhhmmm... I'll try it out after work today...
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bongchild
I got the same intake as u do, Kevin! Hey I just thought of something... Judging from where the filter is at, it's probalby sucking in hot engine bay air. What if you were to drive around with the hood popped?? The filter would b in the perfect spot to get a hit of outside air, plus the latch will keep it from opening all the way while ur driving! Hhhmmm... I'll try it out after work today...
or if you have the sport hood you can just open up the port thats RIGHT OVER it.

Im trying to figure out a way for me to push air from teh hood scoop directly onto the filter.
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Old 09-27-2005, 04:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
I just realized that this intake is a different shape than the one I dyno'd a while back in this post.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=ebay+intake

The one I dyno'd in that thread had significant gains. This is what it looked like.

i can show u a pic of what it looks like now

looks a lil bit different. had to work around the ABS
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Old 09-27-2005, 04:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
So the Mass Airflow Sensor does not measure airflow? I'm confused!
Yes.. it does measure airflow.. but for a given pipe. The MAF only samples a very small area of the pipe. As air flows into an intake, it will travel at very high speeds in the middle (like a water current), and much slower along the walls (where it may tumble as it collides with the surface of the pipe).. and every curve in the piping is going to move the 'current' to a different spot. For the rest of the flow through the pipe, the airflow is assumed. Since the piping is the same on all factory cars, they can program the ECU to make that assumption based on correction factors. When you change the piping, the correction factors aren't going to match up.

Imagine if you took a drinking straw and blew air directly across the MAF's sensing surface (a little resistor) with the throttle plate closed. The MAF would show airflow, even though the overall airflow into the pipe is zero. The MAF can't tell what the air in the rest of the pipe is doing.

I think that's what you're seeing in your readings.. that the airflow current has been shifted around. The MAF isn't giving you the whole story.

This MAF reads the airflow from the wire seen near the top of the center protrusion:

What happens when a bend in the pipe causes more air to flow below the sensor than before? You get a low reading.

In order to actually measure airflow, you may need to construct a flow bench.

In the meantime.. I would think that the fuel trim & o2 sensors would give you a better indication of the amount of actual airflow.
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:49 PM   #20
Patrick Olsen
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Beaverboy speaks the truth. In the Mustang world it's not uncommon for guys to have problems with aftermarket MAF sensors that they're able to resolve by "re-clocking" the MAF sensor in the intake (twisting it so the sample tube is oriented differently in the air flow).

With that said, in this case both the Minnam and Ebay intakes have a straight shot from the filter into the MAF sensor, so it wouldn't seem to me that there'd be any difference in where the air was flowing.

Pat Olsen
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:55 PM   #21
Kevin Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy
Yes.. it does measure airflow.. but for a given pipe. The MAF only samples a very small area of the pipe........
Thanks for explaining this clearly Beaverboy. That was educational. I'm glad you did not take my response the wrong. Thanks again!

As for the passenger side vent comments, I have a WRX bonnet hood scoop that I have had on for years now. Actually, the color has faded on it since it has been on so long.
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Old 09-30-2005, 04:07 AM   #22
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Hey Kevin how well does it flow over the stock intake?

I left the stock one on but just took off the box.

here is a video I finally got around to doing, it's really loud and louder when hitting the rev limiter.

Speaking of that, at around 2900-3200 inside driving I can hear the air being sucked into the CAI, not sure if it's able to be heard outside.

Also to point out I had a pool of water sitting under the CAI, not sure where it came in from.

All 4 links are the same video file, should last awhile.

http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...J2FVVV8BF94UCU
http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...O1YC5IQ8HX9N8Z
http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...W1KJXQMZYEC365
http://s38.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...Z1Y0OMUHI9JQEJ
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Old 10-14-2005, 05:08 PM   #23
Kevin Thomas
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Just changed the air filter on the Ebay intake. The K&N air filter that was previously on was removed. The new filter is part#8136 from Pep Boys. I threw the package away that it came in so I do not know the name of the manufacturer. It was something like 'WW' anyways. ?? It is a nice size air filter. Here is what the Ebay intake looks like now-->


The size difference is noticable.

Notice here that on the 'exhaust' side, the filter has interchangable sizes base on the intake diameter piping size you want to mount to it. You can change it to a 3", 3.5" or 4" diameter opening. The current setting is 3".


It air filter came with oil that was sprayed on. This filter also has a lifetime warranty. It costs only $25.00. Cheap!!!!

Here is the inlet side of the filter.

I love getting air filters that have an opening on the inlet side. More aire to come in due to larger surface area. You can set a hose inside of the opening and route it out to some cool air as well. That helps.

Here is what the intake looks like now.


The engine never gets hot. The hood scoop bottom cover has been removed for years and I have a WRX bonnet scoop on the passenger side right over the air filter. So it is getting cool air.

Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 10-15-2005 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 10-14-2005, 07:45 PM   #24
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How is the performance of the new air filter over the minnam, butt dyno or otherwise? By the way, it looks really nice.
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Old 10-14-2005, 08:19 PM   #25
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that blue filter looks just like the one the one I have now.
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