Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday April 16, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > General Community

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2005, 10:13 AM   #1
Masta_Wu
Guest
 
Member#:
Default Subaru and Stability Control

This is my first AWD vehicle, and also the first car that I own which does not include any form of stability control. I am aware that there are several other AWD or 4WD cars with systems such as VDC, ESP, etc....

Is there a reason Subaru never included such a system on their line of vehicles (other than the Tribeca)? Does anyone here find any necessity for such a system given the form of AWD that Subaru utilizes?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 10:38 AM   #2
Balr14
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84809
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Germantown, WI.
Vehicle:
2005 Forester XT
Black

Default

Stability control is usually reserved for the higher-end vehicles from any manufacturer. I doubt most Impreza buyers would want to pay for it. IMO, given the rate at which kids wreck WRXs and STIs, it would probably be beneficial.
Balr14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 11:02 AM   #3
ChrisL2
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1444
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Manchester, NH
Default

Some of the Legacies/Outbacks have VDC and/or ESP.

Anyways, I would be annoyed with ESP on my STi and would be shutting it off all the time to play.

I've driven ESP vehicle, and sometimes I feel they are too intrusive. They are nice for those drivers who have no clue what they are doing. It helps out if you get a little loose and slide while driving normallly, however, it will not save you from crashing if you really are doing something stupid though.
ChrisL2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 12:43 PM   #4
Masta_Wu
Guest
 
Member#:
Default

I disagree that stability is usually reserved just for high-end vehicles. My last cars, a Passat and a Golf GTI both had ESP, and it wasn't intrustive at all. As a matter of fact I was impressed that it would adjust for other conditions such as having a rear sway bar and higher tire pressure in the rear.

For "purer" sports cars such as the STI, perhaps VDC might be intrusive enough, however some cars also give you the option to turn it off altogether.

Finally, I just wished Subaru at least offered VDC, especially given their uprated brake system on the 06 models as these systems primarilly utilize the brakes/ABS system for stability.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 01:56 PM   #5
OrlandoSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70566
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Moody AFB / Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
2005 Impreza STi
Team Rptr

Default

Actually, all you guys are a little off.....

The Vehicle Dyanmics Control system found in the Tribeca and the VDC Outback are just upgrades to our All-Wheel Drive systems found it every Subaru car. Every single Subaru has built in traction control via the All-Wheel drive. The VDC just uses extra remote sensors that detects/anticipates alterations in a driver's normal driving attitude and uses these electronic signals to manipulate the throttle and brakes to help correct the intended vehicle path.

i.e. - If you're sliding on the road in one direction and your stirring wheel is pointed another, the ECU will detect this and apply throttle/decrease throttle and increase braking/decrease braking power to compensate.

Most FWD/RWD vehicles and even some AWD systems that do not incorporate "Full Time AWD", like the Subaru's (Meaning, they turn on the second set of wheels when needed via hydraulic clutches, or w/e device), incorporate extra added on Traction control modules the help prevent torque steer or hydroplaning, which we all know the Subaru tends to already do extremely well against. We just incorporate in our cars that which they add on....

Make sense ?
OrlandoSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 02:05 PM   #6
OrlandoSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70566
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Moody AFB / Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
2005 Impreza STi
Team Rptr

Default

Oh yeah..... The VDC modules and sensors are fairly expense.... Subaru first introduced back in 2001 in the very limited VDC Outback wagon and that vehicle alone retails for about $35k..... Needless to say I was shocked when they put it in every Tribeca, which you can get for starting around $30k.... Not a bad deal, but I think that if they offered it in every Subaru, most people would not opt to pay about $3k more for the system....
OrlandoSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 02:15 PM   #7
nate49509
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 22452
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Not Flint.
Vehicle:
'04 WRX
witty comment goes here

Default

I don't need a babysitter.
nate49509 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 04:41 PM   #8
Chuck H
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20442
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Vehicle:
KTR tuned 2003 WRX
VF34 equipped, 270 whp

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nate49509
I don't need a babysitter.
Agreed -- every car comes with stability control. It's called a driver. If they can't handle the car, they should get a less powerful car or take some driving lessons. The last thing I want is a car deciding it knows better than I do what I want it to be doing.
Chuck H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 05:59 PM   #9
SubieRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 16611
Join Date: Mar 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Irvine, CA
Vehicle:
05' STi w/ meth inj
Tuned By Harman Motive

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck H
Agreed -- every car comes with stability control. It's called a driver. If they can't handle the car, they should get a less powerful car or take some driving lessons. The last thing I want is a car deciding it knows better than I do what I want it to be doing.

Yeah, your probably right... but all it would take to make it safe for the general public, as well as those of us who like drive without computer interference is a switch to turn it off. But I guess, most of us wouldn't want to pay for it etc etc...
SubieRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 08:53 PM   #10
kbcr3
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44170
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Arlington, VA
Vehicle:
2010 Forester XT
05 and 09 honda ruckus

Default

i wouldn't mind it. my wrx got a little squirrely on me today. i tapped the brake on an exit ramp and the back end broke loose a bit. some other jeep had just spun out on the ramp about 5 seconds before i got there.
kbcr3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 09:08 PM   #11
SubaruImpreza_power
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 13910
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Greenwich, CT
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy outback
blue

Default

I test drove a Outback sedan with VDC.. it was hard enough to get the car to get loose on level ground..

So going up a light incline the hill has like a 5% grade uphill, then it just drops to level ground, and so it drops to level ground out of a corner, so I was at least able to get the VDC warning light on the dash to come on, as well as the warning tone. I felt the car jump back in line pretty quicky, it's a nice thing to have, I almost missed the switch to turn it off.
SubaruImpreza_power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 11:24 PM   #12
Masta_Wu
Guest
 
Member#:
Default

I'm a firm believer in stability controls, and although Subaru's AWD might be effective in providing traction, it would be nice if it also regulated each brakes individually to aid the driver in maintaining stability (compensating for oversteer and understeer), as ESP works. I'm ignorant on how the VDC functions but I wouldn't think it's that different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2005, 11:42 PM   #13
SubaruImpreza_power
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 13910
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Greenwich, CT
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy outback
blue

Default

VDC works the same way.. it reduces engine power and individually Apply brakes to whatever wheel is causing the car to veer of it's course.

So lets say your making a left turn up a hill, and you hit sand or whatever.. and the rear end of the car tries to come around to the right, well then the inside wheels will have brakes Applied to them.

Remember ESP, DSC, VDC, VSC and others are all a variant of the ABS system.
SubaruImpreza_power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 02:15 AM   #14
D fresh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 95459
Join Date: Sep 2005
Vehicle:
the activity level
of AutoX is > than F1

Default

Driving School>Stability Control
D fresh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 02:53 AM   #15
sdogg3kgt
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 38397
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Vehicle:
2002 Lovemachine
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masta_Wu
I'm a firm believer in stability controls, and although Subaru's AWD might be effective in providing traction, it would be nice if it also regulated each brakes individually to aid the driver in maintaining stability (compensating for oversteer and understeer), as ESP works. I'm ignorant on how the VDC functions but I wouldn't think it's that different.
Well you come from FWD vehicles. I have never felt any kind of need for any sort of Traction Control. And you also said the ESP on the GTi is not intrusive. I have found it to be very annoying whenever I drive one, even stock.
sdogg3kgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 03:17 AM   #16
Balr14
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84809
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Germantown, WI.
Vehicle:
2005 Forester XT
Black

Default

So, I suppose WRX and STI insurance is high because of the expert drivers who don't need assistance?
Balr14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 03:26 AM   #17
sdogg3kgt
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 38397
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Vehicle:
2002 Lovemachine
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balr14
So, I suppose WRX and STI insurance is high because of the expert drivers who don't need assistance?
No, it's high because of morons who don't know how to drive to begin with and who also would probably turn TCS off just to mess around.
sdogg3kgt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 08:53 AM   #18
Chuck H
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20442
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Vehicle:
KTR tuned 2003 WRX
VF34 equipped, 270 whp

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D fresh
Driving School>Stability Control
Exactly.

The reason that I don't like stability control is because it can't possibly compensate for every stupid thing you can do with a car. But it makes average to poor drivers overconfident, because the car corrects for their little screw-ups and then when they do the ultimate screw-up that the car can't possibly correct for, they total the car at best and kill themselves and their passengers at worst.

Feeling the little slip-ups is a good way to learn what the limits of the car really are and how they depend on weather, road conditions, your tires, etc. And it's also good to learn how to correct for those little slip-ups when they do occur because at some point the stability or traction control is going to fail and if you have no idea how to handle a slide or skid, you're in serious trouble.

And stability control wouldn't help with all the inexperienced drivers who are wrecking their WRX's and STi's. It would just result in the wrecks happening at higher speeds and more extreme conditions. Newbie drivers with more ego than ability are going to over-drive their limits and the car's limits no matter how high those limits are, and the results are usually pretty predictable.

I'm not claiming to be a world-class driver, but the only way I learn and continue to improve is if I have complete control over the car and learn from my mistakes. Getting slapped down hard when you do something stupid is the best learning tool, in my opinion. Having the car say, "you're an idiot, but that's ok -- I took care of it for you" doesn't teach you anything.
Chuck H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 09:12 AM   #19
Masta_Wu
Guest
 
Member#:
Default

I disagree with the argument that stability control isn't necessary just because of "moron" drivers who can't handle their cars. If such is the case, one could also argue that having ABS on performance cars such as the STI is being too intrusive, and should be left for the general masses.

Traction can be lost even if you are driving under the speed limit. Additionally, sometimes you loose stability in the most unopportune of places such as in a very crowded area with cars coming at you from multiple directions. Knowing how to correct your car during controlled situations (practicing in an empty space), does not mean you will react the same when it "really" happens and others peoples lives are at stake.

Stability control is not synonimous with traction control by itself. In the GTI, traction control was offered via the rather basic "ASR" function. In the Subaru for example, if you just let go of the gas or put the car in netural, and then start yawing sideways or slip around, your car will probably end up where it wants to go, at the side railing or the wall. ESP would kick in during these moments, using your brakes to compensate.

Finally, ESP doesn't replace the laws of physics, and it doesn't replace incompetence. Hence, it won't do magic, but it will surely increase the probability that you do get out of unwarranted situations...

ESP on the GTI is intrusive... if you leave it on. On both the R32 and the GTI, although some argue otherwise, if you hit that button, it is OFF many people have found out the hard way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 09:13 AM   #20
bal00
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 54772
Join Date: Feb 2004
Default

A lot less people die in cars equipped with stability control...fact.
No, it can't make up for every stupid thing a driver might do, but neither can a seat belt, yet it still makes sense to have one. There is no reason it shouldn't at least available as an option.

Of course everyone you ask doesn't need it thanks to Senna-like driving talent, but the reality looks different.
bal00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 09:43 AM   #21
gregr01
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 49333
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Phoenix AZ
Vehicle:
04 STi
java pearl black

Default

Quote:
Every single Subaru has built in traction control via the All-Wheel drive.
Subaru's AWD system will help distribute power to the wheels with the most traction, but this is different than what the industry considers "traction control." The Tribeca is the only model with traction control.

Quote:
If you're sliding on the road in one direction and your stirring wheel is pointed another, the ECU will detect this and apply throttle/decrease throttle and increase braking/decrease braking power to compensate.
For VDC-equipped vehicles yes, though that's only the Tribeca and Outback VDC.
gregr01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 10:24 AM   #22
f4phantomii
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 58504
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Ready to try OpenECU.org!!!
Vehicle:
2004 STi w/o wing
Aspen White / Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nate49509
I don't need a babysitter.
Perhaps not, but apparently a good chunk of the rest of the driving population could benefit from the occasional divine intervention of VDC or ESC systems.

Studies conducted by the NHTSA and others all conclude that these stability augmentation or stability control systems significantly reduce accident rates in single vehicle crashes where the primary cause was loss of control. In some cases by as much as 35% reduction! Based on the results, I'm surprised that there isn't a requirement for such systems to be on every vehicle in the near future.

I'd love if my STi had such a system. Not that it isn't fun to occasionally get the rear wheels loose, but I'm not doing that driving around town or swerving to avoid the debris from a truck tire that just exploded in front of me. In those cases, I'd *really* like to have some stability control for the added safety.

Yeah, driving school is good, but I still think driving school in addition to VDC or ESC is better.

Besides....sometimes babysitters are hot!

Preliminary Results Analyzing The Effectiveness Of Electronic Stability Control Systems - NHSTA Study
Stability Control Makes SUVs Safer, Study Finds
EVALUATION OF VEHICLE DYNAMIC CONTROL FOR ROLLOVER PREVENTION - University of Michigan Study

-Michael
f4phantomii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 11:13 AM   #23
Rick Schu
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 34661
Join Date: Mar 2003
Default

A lot of these ESPs can brake an individual wheel - no amount of driver's school is going to allow you to do that.

The STi and WRX need something like the one on the Vette. It has a competition mode that will only kick in if things get really hairy.

These systems aren't that expensive. My wife's Focus has advance trac. It has a yaw sensor, steering angle sensor and the ability to brake an individual wheel. It was like $1000 MSP and that included rear-disc brakes which the Focus didn't come with at the time.
Rick Schu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 11:40 AM   #24
o2sys
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 43842
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NYC
Vehicle:
200? WRX STI
Aspen White

Default

plus i think our cars handle waaaay better and have better traction than most cars w/ some type of stability control
o2sys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2005, 11:41 AM   #25
FuJi K
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 3687
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: St. Paul, MN
Vehicle:
MY99 GF4 JDM 6spd
NF Performance

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masta_Wu
I disagree with the argument that stability control isn't necessary just because of "moron" drivers who can't handle their cars. If such is the case, one could also argue that having ABS on performance cars such as the STI is being too intrusive, and should be left for the general masses.
Stability is usually menuvers from left to right, that isn't about the ABS system. There can be cars without the ABS feature but have the stability system equipped. They just choose to put ABS on it.

MY CAR doesn't have ABS. I learn to drive without it.

What does stability control do? It makes you UNDERSTEER. That's all what it is. It applies braking to certain wheels to keep the rear end from comming around. Ever seen where they test SUV's with this feature? Like the Toyota Sequioa?

BUT I do think that they should put this feature on the WRX ans STi. ALSO have an off button. Added safety for those not so skilled in car control and safety for everyone in a panic situation.
FuJi K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2009 Subaru Liberty And Outback Get Stability Control/Australia AVANTI R5 News & Rumors 1 10-22-2008 10:23 PM
Let's talk about yaw control (aka stability control, VDC, ESC, etc.) Necromancer General Community 31 06-15-2006 09:50 AM
stability control with viscous limited slip center diff Beanboy Newbies & FAQs 0 04-17-2006 12:12 AM
future of stability control SgWRX Motorsports 8 09-10-2005 01:56 AM
[Vid]BMW stability control or luck? volume311 Off-Topic 26 08-31-2004 01:23 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.