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Old 10-31-2005, 05:37 PM   #1
Innovative Tuning
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Default Gauging Interest: 6 pot front / 4 pot rear big brake kit

Who would be interested in a 6 pot front / 4 pot rear big brake upgrade which would fit under stock STi wheels? We're working with an existing performance brake kit manufacturer on your behalf to put this setup together.

The kit would come with stainless steel brake lines and all stainless hardware and would work with stock or stock fitting rotors. You could later upgrade to a 14" rotor setup using the same calipers. The kit comes with your choice of Hawk HPS or HP+ pads. Direct bolt on fit for STi.

We can also put together a kit with 13" rotors for the WRX if there is enough interest.

Here is some info:
Larger pad area than with stock brembos
Piston size is 40mm each (similar to stock Brembos), so you're basically adding 2 more stock size pistons to each front caliper giving you 50% more piston area
No rebuilding required

If anyone has any questions or comments, fire away. I want to see what you think of the planned setup.

Mike McGinnis
Innovative Tuning
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Old 10-31-2005, 05:46 PM   #2
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YES...make it like $400 for the whole package...lol

college sucks, im broke......

would they be DOT approved?
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Old 10-31-2005, 05:49 PM   #3
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price, and what kind of wheels would we be looking at (i seriously doubt a 14" rotor would fit under anything much smaller than 18x8.5, but a 13" rotor may fit under a 17 if its wide enough?)


no rebuilding? how is that possible? every BBK i've ever seen needs a rebuild at some point or another, it seems to be the nature of the beast?

if you made a WRX kit, what about the master cylinder? it's smaller than the STi cylinder IIRC, would the WRX calipers be smaller / smaller pistons / something? (sorry, im still fairly new to the relations between master cylinder size vs piston area/size and what will change if either is modified)
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Old 10-31-2005, 05:57 PM   #4
Innovative Tuning
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400 bucks sounds pretty low, but I'll take your pricing suggestion under advisement.....LOL

EDIT: Yes it is does meet DOT standards!


Jasper: Price hasn't been set yet, but that's obviously a concern that we're looking at.

The kit which is in the design phase now works with stock STi rotors or 13" slotted rotors which we'd supply. Like I said it would fit under stock STi wheels or any other wheels that clear the stock Brembos.

The 14" kit would require certain 18's for fitment, but that option won't be available right away.

These do not require rebuilding under most conditions.

The WRX setup would use the same calipers and pistons. You could upgrade to an STi master cylinder if you wanted to, or we're working on upgraded master cylinder options as well.

-Mike

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 11-01-2005 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning
We will not be spending the astronomical fees to get this DOT approved.
-Mike


well, if they're not DOT approved, kiss any chance of insurance covering a crash goodbye? if you got into an accident, and they decided to investigate the crash (say, you were injured after hitting a deer on a back road somewhere, never touched the brakes), and found non-DOT compliant brakes on the car, they'd basically tell you to go screw.


that'd be a big concern :/, especially since i really want to upgrade my brakes (Stg.2 isnt even a ton of power compared to what most people are running with upgraded turbos, and i've already begun to hate my brakes)
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:33 PM   #6
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Considering there is no specs for a "DOT approved" caliper I suspect he'll be fine.

There are DOT compliant hose designs- simply that they cannot have adapter fittings on them is the main difference. Whip tests can be performed on them as well if one felt it necessary.

Before releasing data I'd suggest a good technical discussion with the "existing performance brake kit manufacture" regarding the altering of pison area and quantity. As well as alternating rotor diameters. Just adding two more pistons to a caliper is great bragging rights but can mean nothing.. Or a mess. Citing "50% more piston area" should mean that someone doing the work understands the whys and hows of kit building and vehicle dymanics.

It's no secret that there are a number of well designed kits on the market now. And some are better than others in different ways. Often it depends upon the needs placed on the kit. Coming to market with something new you'd have to have a product not currently available.
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:48 PM   #7
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If you can somehow make it counteract the weak hub design of the 04 and earlier subarus I'd be very interested. I had stoptechs and loved them but I got pad knockback within a week. The brembos I have just don't have good pedal feel.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd TCE
Considering there is no specs for a "DOT approved" caliper I suspect he'll be fine.

There are DOT compliant hose designs- simply that they cannot have adapter fittings on them is the main difference. Whip tests can be performed on them as well if one felt it necessary.

Before releasing data I'd suggest a good technical discussion with the "existing performance brake kit manufacture" regarding the altering of pison area and quantity. As well as alternating rotor diameters. Just adding two more pistons to a caliper is great bragging rights but can mean nothing.. Or a mess. Citing "50% more piston area" should mean that someone doing the work understands the whys and hows of kit building and vehicle dymanics.

It's no secret that there are a number of well designed kits on the market now. And some are better than others in different ways. Often it depends upon the needs placed on the kit. Coming to market with something new you'd have to have a product not currently available.
I talked to one of the guys at the brake company and he explained to me, as you just did, that the lines are the only part of any brake kit, including stock, which must meet certain requirements to be DOT legal. This kit is DOT legal.

I have little to no part in the actual design of this kit. I've left that up to the engineers at the brake company. I told them I wanted an upgrade for the stock brembos that could use stock or stock fit rotors and clear the stock wheels. This is what they feel best meets that need based on their testing. Their company has been making performance brake kits for 30+ years and their team of engineers fully understand what it takes to make a balanced package. They have every single product made by their major competitors on hand to be sure that thier units work better. I haven't seen a 6 piston front/4 piston rear upgrade for the WRX or STi and even if there was one available we believe we'll end up with a better product.

I have someone testing a less expensive setup at this time as well. It includes a 4 piston front brake upgrade for the STi with slotted 13" rotors and stainless lines. They will be tested against stock brembos with Ferodo upgraded pads on the street and at the track for side by side comparison. We aren't just throwing something together here. This is being more thoroughly tested than most other kits.

-Mike

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 11-01-2005 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:11 PM   #9
Innovative Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crunch
If you can somehow make it counteract the weak hub design of the 04 and earlier subarus I'd be very interested. I had stoptechs and loved them but I got pad knockback within a week. The brembos I have just don't have good pedal feel.
I've passed this concern along. I'll see what the engineers feel they can do about this issue.

-Mike
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning
I haven't seen a 6 piston front/4 piston rear upgrade for the WRX or STi and even if there was one available we believe we'll end up with a better product.-Mike
Actually there is- the Wilwood front and rear. Six on front, four on rear. Despite what some may believe this is the most properly biased kit out there from my review. Assuming a mild street pad (use HPS as a target .45Cf) stock bias is shifted from about 76/24 to 74/26. I believe that you'll find most of the kits on the market tend to produce a 'nose heavy' 77-80% with stock rears. Even the well known ones. Jjust work with someone who knows how to work this for you and you should be fine.

As for 'better', that's often in the eye of the beholder. What is right for one is often not right for another. There are sooo many variables to honestly say 'better' that it's a term best not tossed out to quickly. I often prefer; 'alternative approach'. Best wishes, I'm sure folks will be eager too see what is offered.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:56 PM   #11
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I would be somewhat interested if they fit under stock wheels. Price dependant though. I'm not so sure I could bring myself to spend more than $1500 with-out the big rotors.

I would want to run a Track/Street pad like the HP+
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovative Tuning
If that's all it takes to be DOT approved we're in good shape.

-Mike
But you can't be DOT approved.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Piston size is 40mm each (similar to stock Brembos), so you're basically adding 2 more stock size pistons to each front caliper giving you 50% more piston area
That would be very silly. 6x40mm pistons? Good luck finding a MC that will push the fluid volume required, never mind the bias effects, the effect on the ABS system, etc.

Thinking about it, I'm sure you misheard something.
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Old 11-01-2005, 08:58 AM   #14
Innovative Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd TCE
Actually there is- the Wilwood front and rear. Six on front, four on rear. Despite what some may believe this is the most properly biased kit out there from my review. Assuming a mild street pad (use HPS as a target .45Cf) stock bias is shifted from about 76/24 to 74/26. I believe that you'll find most of the kits on the market tend to produce a 'nose heavy' 77-80% with stock rears. Even the well known ones. Jjust work with someone who knows how to work this for you and you should be fine.

As for 'better', that's often in the eye of the beholder. What is right for one is often not right for another. There are sooo many variables to honestly say 'better' that it's a term best not tossed out to quickly. I often prefer; 'alternative approach'. Best wishes, I'm sure folks will be eager too see what is offered.
That's good to know and you are correct. There are always trade-offs. Wilwoods generally require an excessive amount rebuilding in exchange for light weight. We'll be pretty light and won't require re-building. I see this as a huge advantage for cars that aren't designed for track only or anyone who doesn't like having to regularly rebuild their brakes. Thanks for the info and support.

-Mike
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:08 AM   #15
Innovative Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bogert
That would be very silly. 6x40mm pistons? Good luck finding a MC that will push the fluid volume required, never mind the bias effects, the effect on the ABS system, etc.

Thinking about it, I'm sure you misheard something.
Nope it really is 6X40mm in the front and the rear 4 piston caliper's diameter hasn't been set yet. That will require some testing. We're looking at master cylinder options, but the Willwood 6 piston/4 piston kit that's already been mentioned has an average piston size of 35mm. The master cylinder shouldn't have a problem.

As I said we're also testing a 4 pot front upgrade and I'll have some data on that in the coming weeks. I'm not going to sell a 6 piston kit unless it's a solid improvement over the 4 piston upgrade. Time and testing will tell...

I'm going to offer an adjustable proportioning valve with a gauge as an option for anyone who is interested in adjusting the bias of the system to their liking, but I'm having our test pilot do the back to back testing before installing the proportioning valve. He'll then install the valve and see if even more performance can be gained with proper adjustment.

-Mike

Last edited by Innovative Tuning; 11-01-2005 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:32 AM   #16
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I guess the next question is: Why? Bragging rights? Certainly not function...

Look at the best calipers available for heavy cars under the most demanding conditions: AP Racing, Alcon or PF short track calipers. Do you see six huge pistons? No. Does your engineer know something they don't? C'mon...

Quote:
the Willwood 6 piston/4 piston kit that's already been mentioned has an average piston size of 35mm. The master cylinder shouldn't have a problem.
Piston area is 46% larger in your caliper than the Wilwood six-pot. You're not seriously saying that you could use a stock MC with that big a change are you?

Last edited by Jon Bogert; 11-01-2005 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:36 AM   #17
Innovative Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bogert
I guess the next question is: Why? Bragging rights? Certainly not function...

Look at the best calipers available for heavy cars under the most demanding conditions: AP Racing, Alcon or PF short track calipers. Do you see six huge pistons? No. Does your engineer know something they don't? C'mon...
Lightweight race cars use 6 or 8 piston calipers all the time. We're making a street/track setup for heavier vehicles so this seems totally warranted to me. If it works better than stock Brembos, and it works better than the 4 piston upgrade, then we'll sell i to those who want more braking performance.
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:40 AM   #18
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Look, I'm going to stop posting now since it's obvious that you're a parts salesman and not an engineer. When you have a real kit to offer, we'll see what the real specs are.
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Old 11-01-2005, 09:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bogert
Look, I'm going to stop posting now since it's obvious that you're a parts salesman and not an engineer. When you have a real kit to offer, we'll see what the real specs are.
If you ask a technical question, I'll get you a technical answer from one of the engineers. You asked me if we're doing this for bragging rights and I answered your question. The answer is no. If a 6 piston out-performs a 4 piston we have a reason to help bring it to market.
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bogert
Look, I'm going to stop posting now since it's obvious that you're a parts salesman and not an engineer. When you have a real kit to offer, we'll see what the real specs are.
Generally people who would post for a company on here would be in sales. There are exceptions but really? Why the harsh reply. He says that if you'll ask he'll pass the ? through.
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:44 AM   #21
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Hmmm. Actually if he does this on a 14" rotor up front, uses a 13" rotor out back with some four pot 40mm's in the rear....bias might be about right. 'Course pedal repsonse will be crap. Now if he can get that Subie heavy industries dump truck MC to fit....

In the end it's not going to function any better with all that from a hydrolic standpoint. But if someone wants to go large I guess it's an option. Let's see what he brings to the table first.
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Old 11-01-2005, 01:18 PM   #22
Innovative Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd TCE
Hmmm. Actually if he does this on a 14" rotor up front, uses a 13" rotor out back with some four pot 40mm's in the rear....bias might be about right. 'Course pedal repsonse will be crap. Now if he can get that Subie heavy industries dump truck MC to fit....

In the end it's not going to function any better with all that from a hydrolic standpoint. But if someone wants to go large I guess it's an option. Let's see what he brings to the table first.
Your assumptions about rotor size may be dead on, but neither my company nor the manufacturer is comfortable selling a product based on guesstimation. As I've mentioned we're going to perform testing with various setups to find out what works best.

For the record, I already offer the StopTech BBKs. They work very well and if this new kit can't outperform it in terms of all out performance and or performance per dollar, I'm not going to sell it. I do, however, think that the perfect kit hasn't been produced yet, and these guys have the talent to find room for improvement. I understand your skepticism, and I agree that time will tell as to whether this kit is cat's meow or not.

My goal with this thread was to hear any/all concerns and to see how many people would be interested in such an upgrade package IF it does turn out to perform at a high level.

Thanks,
-Mike
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