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Old 11-01-2005, 05:24 PM   #1
TravisSTi
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Default Wideband mounting Location and Sensor Life

Reading over the various post concerning the mounting location of the wideband o2 sensor some say a few inches after turbo in the downpipe. While others have them mounted toward the end of the downpipe before the midpipe and some in the stock rear location before the CAT.

For the bosch sensor that is supposed to be ~700-750C operating temps my question is: Has anyone ever tried to measure the temps on a aftermarket downpipe to determine which mounting location is better, the first few inches or the last few inches of your downpipe? (or some other location)

Also for those out there that have mounted there wideband in one of these locations could you comment on how long the sensor has lasted and if you feel your getting accurate readings from the sensor mounted in that location.

Thanks

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Old 11-01-2005, 05:33 PM   #2
cdvma
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I had a sensor mounted in the bottom of a short downpipe (basically right after the bend closest to the ground) for something over 15k miles. Sensor never had problems and gave accurate readings to the end.

Edit: the sensor never died I just removed it and sold the unit.

Last edited by cdvma; 11-01-2005 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:39 PM   #3
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I've had my bosch sensor installed in my helix v1 DP for over a year with 25K miles with no issues. This location is near the end of the DP (it's catless). I do notice a slight delay in the reading, but it's VERRRRY slight. I think for tuning you want it next to the turbo, for daily driving i'd move it farther away to prolong the life of the sensor.
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Old 11-01-2005, 07:31 PM   #4
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I had my Bosch mounted about 6" after the turbo and the first one lasted me about 15K miles before it pretty much completely crapped out and would give timing sensor errors on the LM-1 after 1-2min of operation.

I'm on my second one now.

-jason
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Old 11-01-2005, 08:28 PM   #5
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For those who mount it closer to the turbo, have you installed a smaller copper heatsink for it? It is said to protect the sensor when it is installed on a pipe that is hotter than recommended. For the heatsink, it's really easy to make...

-goto HomeDepot or Lowes
-buy a short length of 1"ID Copper pipe from the plumbing section
-clamp it in a vice and use a hacksaw to cut the pipe along its length
-use a couple screwdrivers like levers to open the pipe up
-keep getting it more and more open until you can get it wide enough to hammer it flat (or use pliers/vice/whatever to flatten it)
-drill a hole in the middle big enough for the sensor
-fold up the edges like shown:

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Old 11-01-2005, 08:53 PM   #6
no-coast-punk
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I've never heard of using a copper heat sink. The hot gas exchanging through the ceramic is what screws up the sensors. I can't really see how having a heat sink on the body would help keep the ceramic cool enough during quick WOT bursts.

I prefer the end of the DP for WB sensors. WB sensors use a pressure/temp reference to calculate lambda. The turbulance right after the turbo outlet can skew these readings a bit. As long as there is sufficient heat present to keep the ceramic happy the readings will be accurate no matter where they're placed. Keep in mind that the hot gasses are moving VERY VERY fast as they're leaving the turbo. There won't be any signifigant latency with the sensor by moving it an extra 18" or so.
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:58 AM   #7
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I would say mine is somewhere between 1' to 2' from the turbo and from what I have gathered, lag is nothing to worry about when you're mounting it on the downpipe - heat is a bigger problem
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Old 11-02-2005, 10:12 AM   #8
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i put mine in the oem rear o2 location.

fhi knows best.
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:24 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
i put mine in the oem rear o2 location.

fhi knows best.
ditto. It helps that im catless.
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmussetter
I had my Bosch mounted about 6" after the turbo and the first one lasted me about 15K miles before it pretty much completely crapped out and would give timing sensor errors on the LM-1 after 1-2min of operation.

I'm on my second one now.

-jason
Mine is 6" after the turbo too but I added a Heat-Sink Bung Extender. I haven't seen a time out error since.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
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Old 11-02-2005, 05:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000
i put mine in the oem rear o2 location.

fhi knows best.
FHI puts the WB in the header and the NB in the rear.


fwiw, I put mine at the VERY beggining of the MP, right after the DP flange (before catback section).
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Old 11-02-2005, 06:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk
I've never heard of using a copper heat sink. The hot gas exchanging through the ceramic is what screws up the sensors. I can't really see how having a heat sink on the body would help keep the ceramic cool enough during quick WOT bursts.
It is specifically recommended to use the copper sink or heatsink-bung-extended when installing on a hotter-than-recommended pipe in the installation instructions included with all Innovate Motorsports wideband products.
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Old 11-02-2005, 06:55 PM   #13
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nhluhr...where do you have your wideband installed at?
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Old 11-02-2005, 08:31 PM   #14
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I have mine in the botton of the downpipe right before the second bend in the verticle section. This prevents it sitting in a condensation collecting area like after the second bend in the DP. This is supposed to extend the life. Used the bosch for over a year and teh VW for the last 4 months. It seems happy there.
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk
I've never heard of using a copper heat sink. The hot gas exchanging through the ceramic is what screws up the sensors. I can't really see how having a heat sink on the body would help keep the ceramic cool enough during quick WOT bursts.
The body of the sensor also has a max temp rating, not just the tip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycal
I have mine in the botton of the downpipe right before the second bend in the verticle section. This prevents it sitting in a condensation collecting area like after the second bend in the DP. This is supposed to extend the life. Used the bosch for over a year and teh VW for the last 4 months. It seems happy there.
If you angle the sensor off the horizontal, like its supposed to be, condensation doesn't form on the far end of the sensor body near the electrics. It moves it towards the pipe and just burns off. There is no harm in doing it anywhere around the underside of the car.
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Old 11-03-2005, 04:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict
nhluhr...where do you have your wideband installed at?
about 6" behind the turbo, in a bung welded at 2-o'clock on my TurboXS downpipe.
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Old 11-03-2005, 07:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxdaddy
Mine is 6" after the turbo too but I added a Heat-Sink Bung Extender. I haven't seen a time out error since.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Yes, that is the cat's meow. It takes the cooler exhaust gas from near the side of the exhaust pipe and diverts it past the sensor. The sensor is unlikely to overheat and can't be damaged by water droplets flying down the exhaust after a cold start. The sensor should last a long time. It's only drawback is that it requires a little more room. In the picture at that link, the top is the section that goes into the exhaust stream (i.e. the picture's upside down).

Its principle of operation is similar to that of their tailpipe sniffer mount and they're both covered by a pending patent, US 20050160840. If you want to look at the diagrams in that patent, you'll need a TIFF browser plugin. The free one from www.AlternaTIFF.com works well.

Last edited by Jon [in CT]; 11-03-2005 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:58 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdvma
The body of the sensor also has a max temp rating, not just the tip.



If you angle the sensor off the horizontal, like its supposed to be, condensation doesn't form on the far end of the sensor body near the electrics. It moves it towards the pipe and just burns off. There is no harm in doing it anywhere around the underside of the car.
You're saying don't mount it perpendicular to the pipe, right? Mount it at a bit of an angle from 90-degrees?
If I've understood that properly......am I looking to mount it INTO the exhaust flow or away from the exhaust flow.
For clarity.....say I'm mounting it in a downpipe which is pretty much verticle....would I want to mount the sensor pointing slightly UP, pointing into the flow, or slightly DOWN, pointing away from the flow?
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Old 11-03-2005, 10:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadTrip
You're saying don't mount it perpendicular to the pipe, right?
The sensor is always mounted perpendicular to the pipe. The ideal sensor orientation is perpendicular to the ground. It should never be mounted such that it is parallel with the ground (i.e. in the side of the pipe). The closer to perpendicular with respect to the ground, the better.
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Old 11-03-2005, 10:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT]
The sensor is always mounted perpendicular to the pipe. The ideal sensor orientation is perpendicular to the ground. It should never be mounted such that it is parallel with the ground (i.e. in the side of the pipe). The closer to perpendicular with respect to the ground, the better.
Dang, I'm glad I asked that question. Thanks very much for the clear info Jon!!
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Old 11-03-2005, 12:32 PM   #21
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Why would you not what it parallel? And when you say perpendicular, do you think it matters if that is straight up from below, or straight down from above?

I always thought that the side was a good spot. Most bungs in aftermarket exhaust systems I've seen are this way. And I thought mounting it from underneath was a bad idea because it would clog and collect particulates faster. I don't see a problem mounting it from above pointing down, nor from the side. I'm not doubting, but care to explain why?
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Old 11-03-2005, 12:46 PM   #22
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You don't want it parallel with the ground because of condensation...read the last 6 posts before yours.
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:19 PM   #23
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Ehh, that makes no sense. Why would condensation form on the sensor electronics if it were mounted parallel to the ground, but not vertically? What do you mean "far end of the sensor body"? I guess I'm not quite following...
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:30 PM   #24
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See the last two pages of the TXS Tuner user manual. It has a copy of the Bosch sensor install docs which diagram it and say the same thing about condensation during startup.

http://www.turboxs.com/downloads/TunaUserManual_1v1.pdf
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Old 11-03-2005, 02:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
Why would you not what it parallel? And when you say perpendicular, do you think it matters if that is straight up from below, or straight down from above?
I meant on the upper side of the pipe, never on the lower side. Somewhere between 10:00 and 2:00..
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