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Old 11-08-2005, 07:55 PM   #1
Token-Negro
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At the Track Race Seats & Air bags

So here is my question, i understand the WRX has the SRS air bags or some system similar to this that can tell when someone is in the seats to control the air bag force and speed. Now what would i do to the system to keep it under control when i remove the seats for aftermarket seats? I will also be adding Sparco Comp 3" 4 point belts with a harness bar. This will be for my AutoX events and will prob say for everyday driving also.
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Old 11-08-2005, 09:46 PM   #2
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You can put a resistor in the airbag connector to make the airbag light go away - same thing I did when I had Ver7 seats. It's 3.3ohm or something... you have to search to be sure.

What seats are you going to be running? I wouldn't do fixed back seats without a rollbar, and remember that you don't want people in the back seat if you have a harness bar.

Are you going to wear the 4-point harnesses on the street too? Can you go to 5's?

john
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Old 11-08-2005, 10:46 PM   #3
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First of all... just how concerned are you with safety vs. bling? Running harnesses in a car with no roll cage is a very good way to get killed in a rollover accident you would have walked away from with stock seat belts.

I would stay away from 4 points like a 10 year old boy should stay away from an HIV infected priest... seriously. 4 points love to crush internal organs and break the base of your spine in head on collisions. 6 points can be used with OEM seats. 5 points are my personal favorite... but only work with seats that have the special cutout for them.

Now a tough question. Do you always wear your seatbelts? Do you care? If you are one of those people that is buckled in before the engine cranks over and you make sure your passengers do the same. You have 2 options:

a) Remove the OEM seat belts and use the harnesses exclusively. This will allow you to simply disable the SRS system by pulling fuses.

b) Use the OEM seatbelts for driving around town and put a kill switch on the +12v supply to the airbag module. Use a 3.3 ohm resistor in place of the seat belt airbags to keep the SRS system mostly happy. In both situations you lose some side impact safety... but for head on collisions the safety is pretty similar. With this option you don't get forced into having to screw with the harness for 5 minutes just to go down the street for a 6 pack.

If you are one of those people that neglects seatbelts from time to time. Keep the stock system. Only use a 3.3ohm resistor on the seat airbags. The frontal airbags use a lower deployment force if they detect the seatbelts haven't been buckled and can still save your life.
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Old 11-09-2005, 01:01 AM   #4
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what about older subarus? do the GC guys have to fret about being killed by their racing seat after bouncing off the airbag?
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:05 AM   #5
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Thanks for the reply's i guess after reading them i will go with the keep the stock seat belt part. Im not sure what it would take to run the 5 point, i guess the sub strap? Well the status racing seats dont have that one how ever i could cut them and put that strap in. This would give me the 5 point correct? I planned on wearing the harness all the time street and track. Is there a problem with that? For now this setup with be just on my seat as ill leave the passanger seat stock for the ladies, they just dont like the race seats very much.
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Old 11-09-2005, 02:32 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Token-Negro
I planned on wearing the harness all the time street and track. Is there a problem with that?
There are those who wear them everyday. Some really like the looks of a harness setup draped over them. Nothing wrong with that, but I personally do not condone in doing so (wearing them on the street).

The point of the harness is to keep you upright at all times. In certian situations that would arise, lets say a pending accident/collision that you would need to duck in order to save your head (such as sliding under a rather large semi), it would be impossible to do so.

Of course, one may argue that the reaction of any normal human being to be able to dive at a moment's notice is null.

Another, as someone earlier put it, is that you do not have a proper cage/rollbar equipped with the said vehicle. Without it, and only branded with your harness setup, under the worse-case rollover accident, you may have yourself pinned in an uncomfortable, or should I say, a life threatening position. A standard 3-point would normally give the safety bubble for you to conform with a collapsing roof.

This is all based on the worse-case scenario. When you change anything with the SRS, you make a safety compromise of the original design and intent. Something you are willing to accept. Whenvever that change would prove benificial to you is up to your mindset. Yes there are people out there just driving with their 5pt setups and some involved in street related collision, and comming out without injuries. But you usually don't hear back from those who don't make it.

I would recommend sticking with you factory belts on the street. And you may go crazy accordingly at your local autoX

-paK +2
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Token-Negro
For now this setup with be just on my seat as ill leave the passanger seat stock for the ladies, they just dont like the race seats very much.
You must be dating the wrong women...
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno
You must be dating the wrong women...
Might have somthing there, one thing is i can put a very slim passanger seat in and weed out any girls that cat fit Sorry baby your a$ is just to big.
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:27 AM   #9
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Side note, for roll bars, i have seen the autopower ones but they yeild the back seat pretty useless for just putting things back there, since i wasnt smart enough to get a wagon i use the back seat a lot. Is there anyone making a roll bar that gives better access to the rear seats?
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:35 AM   #10
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Good thread with good info.

I also agree that if you are running shoulder harnesses, you need a rollbar. When I ran street cars on the track without a rollbar, I'd run the stock seatbelt with a 3" competition Simpson lapbelt. This did a good job of holding me in without adding that unsafe aspect in case of a rollover.

If you add a rollbar, work with a cage builder. You can do a custom rollbar that can be unbolted and removed in under an hour. Put it in for track days, take it out otherwise.

jack
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Old 11-09-2005, 11:06 AM   #11
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What would be the bennifits to runing the 5 point over the 4 point in a daily driver setup?
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Old 11-09-2005, 12:19 PM   #12
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i love the extra 5th pt, it helped the harness fit me a lot better, and enabled me to tighen it a lot more snug. My car is my daily driver, I just use my harness only for autox
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Old 11-09-2005, 12:56 PM   #13
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It's not safe to wear a 4- or 5-point harness without a roll cage. If you roll, the roof will most likely cave in. If you're wearing the stock 3-point belt, your body can lean down towards the center of the car to avoid the collapsing roof. If you're wearing a 4- or 5-point harness, there's nowhere your body can go, and your head and neck are going to take the full force of the collapsing roof. Most likely, you're not going to live through this situation.

Wearing a harness may look cool, but IMHO it's not worthing sacrificing my safety in a rollover situation.

-Chris
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Old 11-09-2005, 01:37 PM   #14
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A harness and race seat will restrict your mobility too much for road use (aside from the often debated roll-over issue). I pass through a number of junctions that require a quick shift of my upper body and a glance back to make sure the road is clear. No matter how my mirrors are set, there will be angles that require upper body movement and/or looking back. If you have restricted visibility, you put yourself and others at risk.

As an aside, I'm not sure how stock seatbelts can work well if you have a one piece race seat with high side bolsters.
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Old 11-09-2005, 01:52 PM   #15
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I have stock seats, and both a 5pt and the stock seat belt. You couldn't PAY me to wear the 5pt on the street, it's just not safe.
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Old 11-09-2005, 05:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea
A harness and race seat will restrict your mobility too much for road use (aside from the often debated roll-over issue). I pass through a number of junctions that require a quick shift of my upper body and a glance back to make sure the road is clear. No matter how my mirrors are set, there will be angles that require upper body movement and/or looking back.
I drive my rollbar/Sparco Evo/6-point harness Miata a lot and I really don't think it's an issue. Even with the harness on as tight as it will go I still have enough neck movement to be able to look over my shoulder. It probably depends on the blind spot of the car, though.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:09 AM   #17
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I think ill just keep the stock seat belts in and also the harness, but only use them while on the track, until i get a roll bar that suits my needs.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car #187
I have stock seats, and both a 5pt and the stock seat belt. You couldn't PAY me to wear the 5pt on the street, it's just not safe.
We hear this statement over and over and over, but does ANYBODY have any evidence of this ever actually happening? I've seen 10 or 20 track day videos of people rolling with harnesses and none of them had injuries due to this fact. I'm sure that if there WERE injuries that bad due to harnesses, there wouldn't be videos available, yet I still have never heard of a fatality or serious injury because of this.

Yes, it makes sense, but I think people are blowing it out of proportion... When I had a harness in my car for autox, I never wore it on the street, but only because it was uncomfortable. When I tracked my car, I used the harness (no roll bar or cage in that car).

Same deal with roll cages and helmets... Any documented cases of injuries sustained from un-helmeted heads in caged cars? I used to believe the hype, but after 10 years of racing in various forms, I just don't think the threat is that serious.

I honestly believe that the benefits of a harness or cage without the other components (cage for the harness, helmet for the cage) outweigh the negatives. For instance, if all cars had roll cages, would fatalities be LOWER than they are now? Likewise, is the same true for harnesses?

My point being, where is the data? Of course, you know what they say about opinions... they're like buttholes.... everybody has one and they all stink.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:34 PM   #19
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AlexP,

I generally agree with your assessment that people are bad assessors of risk, but I've hit my bare head on a roll cage hard enough to suffer dizziness and nausea, and get an enormous headache. On a transit in a rally car, naturally. That made it clear to me that a side-impact incident with a cage and a bare head could definitely be fatal.

And really, harnesses on the streets? How 2 Fast 2 Furious.

Cheers,
- Christian
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:42 PM   #20
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To fan the fire a bit more: Given the level of safety required in todays cars, how many have had the roof collapse on a roll-over? Cars, not mini-van, SUV's, trucks etc as they don't have the same safety standards that are required for cars.
From what I have read and pictures that I have seen of crash tests, the roof structure looks like it has to be designed to withstand a roll-over without collapsing.

Goni.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk
a) Remove the OEM seat belts and use the harnesses exclusively. This will allow you to simply disable the SRS system by pulling fuses.
If his state is anything like PA, that is illegal. The OEM seat belts must remain intact, unless supplied with a DOT Legal harness. Shroth makes one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk
b) Use the OEM seatbelts for driving around town and put a kill switch on the +12v supply to the airbag module. Use a 3.3 ohm resistor in place of the seat belt airbags to keep the SRS system mostly happy. In both situations you lose some side impact safety... but for head on collisions the safety is pretty similar. With this option you don't get forced into having to screw with the harness for 5 minutes just to go down the street for a 6 pack.
From everything I have read (from Subaru Techs), a Kill Switch on the +12v supply is not needed. Every airbag has its own sensor. So even if you remove one, the whole system still works like normal. I put seats in my STi, and to my knowledge, the front air bags still work to full potential. Not that I want to test them.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy13
To fan the fire a bit more: Given the level of safety required in todays cars, how many have had the roof collapse on a roll-over? Cars, not mini-van, SUV's, trucks etc as they don't have the same safety standards that are required for cars.
From what I have read and pictures that I have seen of crash tests, the roof structure looks like it has to be designed to withstand a roll-over without collapsing.

Goni.
The roof needs to be able to withstand the weight of the vehicle, in the event of a rollover. Does it always? No. Every accident is unique.
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:06 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjorn240_140s_are_cooler
I generally agree with your assessment that people are bad assessors of risk, but I've hit my bare head on a roll cage hard enough to suffer dizziness and nausea, and get an enormous headache.
I've bumped my head hard enough [to get the same results] getting INTO my car on the ROOF! And the roof of my racecar is made from recycled lawn chairs... (ie, it's pretty darn flimsy). Anyhoo, nausea and headaches are not serious injuries... I get those everytime I go out drinkin with you rally type folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjorn240_likes_the_malibu_max
On a transit in a rally car, naturally. That made it clear to me that a side-impact incident with a cage and a bare head could definitely be fatal.
but how many side impacts would the cage PROTECT you from? You have to look at the big picture, not one specific event. In all the accidents that you've been in, in rally's, how many times have you replaced your helmet? If your helmet did it's job to prevent a trauma causing impact, then for sure it is no longer usable. I believe you've been in a few, right?
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Old 11-11-2005, 10:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexP
I believe you've been in a few, right?
3. Oregon 2000. 3/4 roll down a ditch.
2. Maine 2005. Backwards down a ditch.
1. Cog 2005. Yeah. Umm. Ahh.

That's all I can recall. Nice job with the quotations. PWNED!

- Christian
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Old 11-11-2005, 11:43 PM   #25
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Here is a link to the Schroth harness mentioned earlier...

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...legal/quickfit

Looks like it comes out completely for the street but will help hold you in for autocross. Not sure I would use it for anything faster than autocross though.
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