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Old 11-14-2005, 03:01 PM   #1
Hotrodguru
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Default Project X: Built motor suggestions for sustained high RPMís

LONG READ notice! Thanks.

Topic:
R.I.P. Subbie motor #3. I have now come to the crossroads and need the advice of Subbie Motorsport Guruís. I have now gone thru my 3rd motor (2nd motor was a fluke) and decided now is the time for the Subbie to go under the knife. Time to shop for a cheap daily driver is now and my car wonít come back till itís built right. Also not having it as a daily driver will make the options a bit nicer. Iím going to put some history, driving characteristics, what the cars been used for and whatís gone wrong with the last 2 motors. Any and all knowledgeable advice is greatly appreciated.

Car and mods (engine & tranny wise):
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX
RSR Downpipe
RSR Cat-Back
GP Moto Equal Length Header w/ integrated uppipe
Vishnu Crank Pulley
K&N Shorty Intake
Turbo XS MBC set @ 16.5lbs (untuned).
ACT Heavy Duty Clutch
ACT Superlite Flywheel
Ver.7 NonRA ratio gears
Kartboy short throw shifter
EJ20 redone with all ARP studs and fasteners
Ohh...and a whole bunch of stickers .

Use:
Car WAS a daily driver that was driver EXTREMELY hard on a regular basis. This car just clicked over the 100k marker but had the tranny redone at 80k and the motor at 65k. This car has ran in open road races such as the Big Bend Open Road Race (similar to the Silver State Classic but in West Texas). This car also has scene a many a track days at both big tracks (3.2 miles) capable of mid to high triple digit speeds and smaller road courses. Occasionally it has recently been AutoXíed and would like to do that more regularly.

Motor Failures:
Motor #1 - went while at a track day. Car and motor had 62k on it and this was running STOCK boost without a MBC. Crank bearing failure on the #2 rod. Possible cause, oiling issue.

Motor #2 - (EJ20 longblock) was in for only 24 hours and Kaboom because of a timing belt. Seller was very reputable and told me the longblock only had 24k miles on it but then again Iíve installed and built over 20+ racing motors in various vehicles. We agreed it could have been either just a bad motor and the timing belt let go or the timing belt tensioner was left loose, rubbed on timing belt cover and was sucked into motor hence the grenaded motor result. Possible cause, faulty motor or install on motor.

Motor #3 - (EJ20 shortblock) was put in week later after the longblock I had purchased grenaded and well lasted till Saturday. Total number of miles on the motor were close to 42k. This motor gave out while on a Saturday cruise on some nice twisty roads. This motor started making some noise about 1k miles ago and I had posted and well we now know what that was, this is the post on that. Possible cause, oiling issue on the #2 rod again and a bearing had spun already and didnít know about it.

Thread about noise in Motor #3 - http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862537





Goals:
This car is going under the knife and Iím no longer in a hurry to get it back up. The car is going to get FULLY gutted and caged. Only 2 race seats and need to figure out what Iím going to do with it. Iím thinking for the fun of it Iíll AutoX it and might end up in F Prepared. Might be competitive maybe not. What I really would like to do with the car is perhaps back to some open road races, track days and perhaps tuner car like shootouts. A car I could take out to a track and just run the hell out of it or that would just be a competitive car like in the Road and Track 1 Lap of America type series.

Motor Ideas:
If I loose the weight and say I get the car down to around 2700-2850lbs by gutting and some panel replacement with Carbon Fiber my roommate says 300-350hp at the crank should make it plenty fast. My car has remained untuned mainly because Iíve been stubborn and waiting to tune once I upgraded my turbo. My idea before the motor went was running something along the lines of an 18g which on race gas could make between 330-360 at the wheels depending on tune on a stock EJ20. From everything Iíve seen it seems as though the EJ20 has an oiling issue and this is what I want to find out. What could I build for sustained high RPM track day type runs that would be reliable? A built 2.2, 2.5 and some nice racing heads? What kind of reliable horsepower and rpm do you think a proposed motor would make and run? Can I make a reliable bullet proof motor? Is over 330hp needed? Is there some type of nice oiling system upgrade or things you can do to perhaps the oiling journals etc...to assist the lubrication?

LOTS and LOTS of questions and time is appreciated.

Thanx, Guru

My poor Subbie:

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Old 11-14-2005, 03:30 PM   #2
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I'd blame the "crank pulley". I don't have as much exp w/ Subaru's(worked on more performance Honda's than I can count though), but you have been having issues "crank" related. Using a non-stock crank pulley caused balance issues with the crank all the time under high hp situations with some of the Honda's I worked on - due to the lack of the harmonic balancer.

Last edited by prototypeWRX; 11-14-2005 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 11-14-2005, 05:53 PM   #3
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I'm no expert. But I'd say overall, you need to go with more oil pressure. This can be acclomplished with slightly smaller bearings atleast on the coresponding rod.

Or a dry-sump with a more aggresive oil pump.

To save yourself a headache though. I'd just go with forged rods and pistons in an STi block. That should be relatively bullet-proof motor.

You have to remember something though. Even the strongest and most well built motor is still suceptible to IMPROPER tuning.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:01 PM   #4
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Well this was suggested on another forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretAgent
not quite bam bam. all modern motors are balanced internally, the crank pully has nothing to do with balance, at least as far as mass is concerned. what harmonic balancers in the crank pulley do is absorb harmonic vibrations in the motor. they allow the motor to run smoother and more efficient at high rpm. however, i would still recommend switching back to the stock pulley as harmonic vibrations can cause all kinds of problems on high revving motors.

my suggestions to u jay are this...JDM STi block, stock pulleys, baffled oil pan, smaller (as in not as wide) rod and crank bearings (less frictional wear and lower surface area equating to higher oil pressure along the surface of the bearin (less chance for spun bearing failure), a large oil cooler (HKS, GReddy, Earl's are all good ones), perhaps a higher volume oil pump (although the JDM ver7 oil pump should be more than sufficient), A GOOD TUNE, and possibly enlarged oil passages in the crank on the rod journals (this will keep the pressure the same as stock, even with an aftermarket high volume oil pump but will increase oil flow, allowing for faster exhange of the oil on the bearing surface, removing impurities faster, making your bearings last longer.

other than that, there's not much else you can do. unless you want to tear the new motor down and completely high speed balance, and blueprint everything in the motor, but that can be costly, and on a motor such as the ver7 motor the benefits really won't outweigh the costs.

let me know if u need anything else man.
Then again if I can save up the money maybe this is a good route.

J.

http://www.crawfordperformance.com/p...s.cgi?Menu=1-1



Specifics on the 2.34 Liter Short Block (SR1):
- Crawford Performance designed Billet 4340 rods
- Crawford Performance designed pistons
- New 2.5 Liter USDM STi Short Block
- Cast Semi-Closed Turbo Block
- STi Forged Crank
Price: 3999.00
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:06 PM   #5
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S3 motor is my route! ;-)
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:11 PM   #6
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Hotrodguru,
Perhaps this question would be better posed to folks in some of the other technical forums, although I know a few in here have dabbled at this sort of thing.

My first thought is (if one wanted to stay with a 2.0L) is I hear good things about the EJ207 and durability. As for oiling issues, I don't know how it might differ from the EJ205 though.

I suppose it depends on what sort of budget you were trying to stay within which really, is the case with all significant engine buildups.

-Biggly

edit: Wow, quick posters sniped me. JDM motor or Crawford...those were my two thoughts but I eliminated the Crawford idea originally due to cost.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
Wow, quick posters sniped me. JDM motor or Crawford...those were my two thoughts but I eliminated the Crawford idea originally due to cost.
Yeah...well the cost of rushing to get my daily car back on the road with a stock EJ20 has been costly too. I like the ver7 option and really if I can get a decent daily driver I don't care if my cars down till mid 2006. I'll just save up and get the crawford etc... One thing about perhaps doing a ver7 block is that right out of the gate it already redlines at 8k from the factory so have to think about that too. Wonder what the Crawford spins too.

Guru
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:05 PM   #8
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What exactly failed within the engines? Spun bearings? Connecting rods let go? Other? Have you checked the cylinders for out of round? What was your oil pressure doing during all this?

Large oil coolers are absolutely necessary on these engines. Baffled oil pans should have also come from the factory. Are you absolutely restricted to 2.0L? The EJ22t shortblocks are probably the happiest at sustained RPM's other than the JDM closed deck 2.0's. As long as you have no oil starvation issues even a stock USDM WRX engine can stand up to some pretty heavy abuse.

Give us more info as to your budget and exactly what you'll be doing with this. More info on the failure is also needed. You could throw a $5,000 shortblock in the car and have it let go within a few weeks if this is a lubrication issue like I suspect.
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Old 11-14-2005, 09:56 PM   #9
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no coast, who makes a baffled oil pan for the motor? would you suggest this as an upgrade for us that we should consider doing early on in the buildup process?
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:04 PM   #10
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I made my own baffles. The WRX oil pan has (useless) baffling from the factory. The N/A oil pans are totaly empty and a better starting point. I've heard that prodrive makes a pan for group N cars that have good baffling but I haven't been able to find anything about it.

Things like this are where having old v8 engine building books come in handy. Making a useless awful boat anchor engine perform and survive decently takes a few clever tricks like this.

A pan with good baffling is absolutely critical if the vehicle is going to be seeing extended cornering loads. On Subies doing <1g on the skidpad I've seen oil pressure drop 25+ PSi on long hard corners.

Oil cooling is just as critical. Sump temperatures can climb well over 300 degrees before you'd think. Even good synthetics will break down and lose viscosity under those conditions... this is most likely what ate your motors.

Last edited by no-coast-punk; 11-15-2005 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:59 PM   #11
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you know someone should submit a design to greddy or HKS on this.

all these companies make aftermarket oil pans for all other motors, why not for ours?

You should tell a domestic manufactuere to produce an aftermarket oil pan for our cars and sell them your design
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Old 11-15-2005, 07:08 AM   #12
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IIRC the Spec-C has a baffled oil pan.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:16 AM   #13
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Doesn't MRT and ARC make baffled oil pans? I know I have seen some welded alum. pans while searching the web. I believe some of the newer JDM STi's come with an extra oil journal drilled in the crank on the #2 bearing. I believe Rallispec has it listed on their site. If I were you, I would do more research on finding out situations are causing your failures, then find the rule book that I would be racing the car with, and from there start building the ideal motor.

Seth E.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:09 AM   #14
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What about cooling? You're making assumptions that oiling is your only problem. Have you taken any steps to upgrade the capacity or efficiency of the cooling system? How about an external oil cooler?
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk
What exactly failed within the engines? Spun bearings? Connecting rods let go? Other? Have you checked the cylinders for out of round? What was your oil pressure doing during all this?

Large oil coolers are absolutely necessary on these engines. Baffled oil pans should have also come from the factory. Are you absolutely restricted to 2.0L? The EJ22t shortblocks are probably the happiest at sustained RPM's other than the JDM closed deck 2.0's. As long as you have no oil starvation issues even a stock USDM WRX engine can stand up to some pretty heavy abuse.

Give us more info as to your budget and exactly what you'll be doing with this. More info on the failure is also needed. You could throw a $5,000 shortblock in the car and have it let go within a few weeks if this is a lubrication issue like I suspect.
Yeah there are alot of questions to be answered. As for budget really don't know yet. 3 blocks sooo far have been quiet pricey so if I have to be without my Subbie for a good while like even till mid 2006 I'll wait to do it right. Honestly I think I can save up like $4k for maybe motor and heads. Also want to go ahead and get full coilovers and some more suspension stuff. I really don't know but if I have to wait I will. I do want to go more along the lines of a racing only Subbie. Oil cooler, better radiator, maybe dry sump...I don't know. Overall I don't want to spend over 7k I think because then the car would be down about a year or so. We can start with motor #1 that let go and I really won't have any concrete answers for a little while because I'm going to have to take these motors all apart. Once I removed this current motor, I'll have 3 sitting at the house.

Motor #1 - I'm ASSUMING it was just a bearing that let go. I haven't looked at like splitting the block or anything like that. It was making the exact same noise as this motor that just let go. When I removed all of the components to build #3, I visually looked over the crank and rods. I could grab the #2 rod and move it for and aft and it seemed like there was play on the crank journal. As it is, it still sits in my garage.

Motor #2 - was just that freaky bad motor or missed step on the install thing that caused the timing belt to go.

Motor #3 - yet to be determined but very similiar to motor #1

As far as oil pressure, well I have all factory gauges including the oil temp sensor on the optional gauge cluster set from Subaru. So I really don't know where the oil pressure has been throughout all this but never any cooling or oil temp issues. Actually oil temp always stayed very constant. Well full gauges are now in order and I'll get some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porter
What about cooling? You're making assumptions that oiling is your only problem. Have you taken any steps to upgrade the capacity or efficiency of the cooling system? How about an external oil cooler?
I haven't done any of the above. My car has always ran very cool even on track days. Seeing that I live in Houston and it doesn't freeze much I normally run a minimal amount of coolant. I run more water and usually an additive like Red Line Water Wetter or Royal Purples Ice Coolant. In all effects I want to do this right this time so will probably get an aluminum radiator along the lines of a Griffen, etc.....

Guru
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:30 AM   #16
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Well emailed Crawford regarding this and looks like they have some nice options. The S2 Short Block (Gumball 3000 Rally Proven) is $2249 and if I can fork out the extra cash the S3L is on sale for $3499. Ohh well don't think I can afford the S3L so I'll save up for the S2 and put some sweet heads and cams on it.

Guru

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The S3L will give you a longer lasting motor due to the decrease in friction by utilizing a longer rod ratio. In theory, it will also make more power while using the same peripheral components. That being said, I would choose the S3L for my car if the money was there

Thanks again,
Quirt Crawford

Crawford Performance
4168 Avenida De La Plata Ste.116
Oceanside, CA 92056
www.crawfordperformance.com
760-631-2927

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: Marroquin, Jay R
To: technical@crawfordperformance.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: Built motor suggestions for sustained high RPM's


Haha, hey thanks Quirt. Alright one last question, if I can afford the S3 block, would you still recommend the S2 for my needs or should I go with the S3?

Thanks, Jay Marroquin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: technical@crawfordperformance.com [mailto:technical@crawfordperformance.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 4:27 PM
To: Marroquin, Jay R
Subject: Re: Built motor suggestions for sustained high RPM's

Hello Jay,

You have given me information overload

I get the idea of what you are looking for, and our S2 will do the job just fine. The reliability and HP of the motor will be governed by the tune and the size of the turbo.

Take a look at this thread, http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=881879 This car makes 500HP without any issues using a block almost identical to our S2.

Thanks,
Quirt Crawford

Crawford Performance
4168 Avenida De La Plata Ste.116
Oceanside, CA 92056
www.crawfordperformance.com
760-631-2927
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:37 AM   #17
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Jay, again, you have the info infront of you from a proven expert. The tune is going to be critical here.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratt_finkel
Jay, again, you have the info infront of you from a proven expert. The tune is going to be critical here.
Yep, you can say that again. Now to figure out who's gonna tune the new motor after the build, Jarrad, Clark, Vishnu, trailer it to Cali?

Guru
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ru fan
I believe some of the newer JDM STi's come with an extra oil journal drilled in the crank on the #2 bearing.
Axis power does this as well on thier cranks to support higher revs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porter
What about cooling? You're making assumptions that oiling is your only problem. Have you taken any steps to upgrade the capacity or efficiency of the cooling system? How about an external oil cooler?
Another great point an oil cooler is fairly cheap insurace. You can piece one together yourself for around $100 or buy a kit for $400 .

I would say with an oil cooler, baffled oil pan, and new crank should help your lubrication problems.
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