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Old 11-14-2005, 04:05 PM   #1
Timber wolf
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Default 06 STI at the autocross (observations)

Firstly, I am not that avid an autocrosser, so my times were merely decent... I can say that I was consistent running 57s. With some more comfort and time, 55s where achievable. I did not get enough runs in to achieve comfort with the course... In fact, I ended up spending more time concentrating on not going off course, that I never get around to prepping for specific turns. I just muslced through the course which eats precious time. Auto Xing is clearly an art form, and different from road racing. This is a humbling experience.

I can say that the Evo MR guys were significantly faster than me, running 53s. Granted most of the drivers have spent more time at these types of events, but I would still say the Evo is questionably a better car for tight courses.

Positives: Great acceleration and controlability. The car is just easy to drive!
I could easily enduce oversteer via throttle control. The tires did their job, and screamed when they were at their limit. I played with the DCCD, and noticed little difference so just kept her in Auto.
At the limits of adhesion, the car was easy to drift through long sweepers... This was actually more fun than getting through quickly.

Negatives: The course was a 2nd gear course, but I ended up bouncing off the limiter due to shortness of gearing. I needed another 1000 rpms. And 3rd gear only slowed me down.
Brakes did not have enough bite for this application. I expect way more from Brembos. My M3 and Mcoupe had more bite it seemed.
I did encounter understeer going too hot into corners (when the brakes didn't slow me enough), but this never got out of hand.
Launching this car well on a consistent basis can be tricky...
The front end needs more bite somehow.

Conclusion: This car is awesome for this type of application, but would really thrive on a road course.(next season)
I think that some Hawk or Potterfield R4 pads, a beefier front sway bar and 245s all around would really make this car a serious threat, as it is already.

I can't wait for another go at it!
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Last edited by Timber wolf; 11-14-2005 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 11-14-2005, 04:40 PM   #2
jmott
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What road racing have you done and how do you typically place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber wolf
Firstly, I am not that avid an autocrosser, so my times were merely decent... I can say that I was consistent running 57s. With some more comfort and time, 55s where achievable. I did not get enough runs in to achieve comfort with the course... In fact, I ended up spending more time concentrating on not going off course, that I never get around to prepping for specific turns. I just muslced through the course which eats precious time. Auto Xing is clearly an art form, and different from road racing. This is a humbling experience.

I can say that the Evo MR guys were significantly faster than me, running 53s. Granted most of the drivers have spent more time at these types of events, but I would still say the Evo is questionably a better car for tight courses.

Positives: Great acceleration and controlability. The car is just easy to drive!
I could easily enduce oversteer via throttle control. The tires did their job, and screamed when they were at their limit. I played with the DCCD, and noticed little difference so just kept her in Auto.
At the limits of adhesion, the car was easy to drift through long sweepers... This was actually more fun than getting through quickly.

Negatives: The course was a 2nd gear course, but I ended up bouncing off the limiter due to shortness of gearing. I needed another 1000 rpms. And 3rd gear only slowed me down.
Brakes did not have enough bite for this application. I expect way more from Brembos. My M3 and Mcoupe had more bite it seemed.
I did encounter understeer going too hot into corners (when the brakes didn't slow me enough), but this never got out of hand.
Launching this car well on a consistent basis can be tricky...
The front end needs more bite somehow.

Conclusion: This car is awesome for this type of application, but would really thrive on a road course.(next season)
I think that some Hawk or Potterfield R4 pads, a beefier front sway bar and 245s all around would really make this car a serious threat, as it is already.

I can't wait to for another go at it!
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Old 11-14-2005, 04:42 PM   #3
Timber wolf
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Have not done any racing. Just open track days with the BMW club.
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Old 11-14-2005, 04:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber wolf
Have not done any racing. Just open track days with the BMW club.
Aha, I suspected that.

Autocross is not all that different of an art than road racing.

It simply is more likely to expose a lack of skills since

1. There is actual timed competition
2. Horsepower won't make up much time for you

I suspect if you stick with autocrossing until you are competitive, you will find yourself much more comfortable and faster on the big tracks as well. Its hard to get a feel for the limit at a track day when a mistake might kill you and or ruin your car.
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Old 11-14-2005, 05:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmott
Aha, I suspected that.

Autocross is not all that different of an art than road racing.

It simply is more likely to expose a lack of skills since

1. There is actual timed competition
2. Horsepower won't make up much time for you

I suspect if you stick with autocrossing until you are competitive, you will find yourself much more comfortable and faster on the big tracks as well. Its hard to get a feel for the limit at a track day when a mistake might kill you and or ruin your car.
Thanks for the insight dad.

Interestingly enough, I was right with a few prepped cars who's drivers have done at least 10 TRACK events this season, but were challenged with the technicals of the course. Please don't try to belittle me.
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Old 11-14-2005, 05:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber wolf
Thanks for the insight dad.

Interestingly enough, I was right with a few prepped cars who's drivers have done at least 10 TRACK events this season, but were challenged with the technicals of the course. Please don't try to belittle me.

I don't really mean to belittle you, it sounds like you sucked a lot less at your first event than most people do, no doubt thanks to your track day experience.

I'm just saying that people with successful competitive road racing experience tend to do extremely well at autocrossing too, and trying to point out that *possibly* you might have some things to learn about driving and that the skills will cross over from big track to autocross and vice versa.


I know I still have *lots* to learn and I'm not 2 seconds slower than cars in my class =)

but hell I only speak from experience so I dunno what thats worth.

Last edited by jmott; 11-14-2005 at 05:32 PM. Reason: i actualled spell skills with a z, omg
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Old 11-14-2005, 05:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber wolf
Thanks for the insight dad.

Interestingly enough, I was right with a few prepped cars who's drivers have done at least 10 TRACK events this season, but were challenged with the technicals of the course. Please don't try to belittle me.
Somebody pee in your cheerios this morning or is it that time of month for you?

Auto-x isn't easy. There's a saying that goes something like this:

"If autocross were any easier, they'd call it road racing."

jmott only brushed on a few 'finer' points of auto-x. That, and you don't know the car... yet. Auto-x WILL help you become a better driver on the roadcourses. Just the way it is, and has been, for generations. If you want to go and think you were lectured, you got some learning still to do about 1) the sport of auto-x and 2) this forum.

He was not belittling you....

[Sarcasm]
Your reaction to jmott was way off base... junior. Now apologize to him, or go to your room with no desert tonight!

If that's how you think you were treated, then you'll do what I told you becuase you obviously don't know any better.
[/Sarcasm]

Now... THAT is belittling.
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Old 11-14-2005, 05:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber wolf
Thanks for the insight dad.

Interestingly enough, I was right with a few prepped cars who's drivers have done at least 10 TRACK events this season, but were challenged with the technicals of the course. Please don't try to belittle me.
Well here I was typing away when I scroll down to review and I see KC's response.
Thanks Dad!
One thing to add: car setup is completely different for autocross, an autocross car would probably be so loose on a road course that you find it scary.
IBmakospic
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Old 11-14-2005, 05:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC
desert
[OT]DESSERT[/OT]
Remember, you only want to go to the DESERT once, but you want seconds of DESSERT.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:39 PM   #10
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my ss key ssometimes ticks and ometimess doesn't work at all.

It's a mute point.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC
It's a mute point.
huh? i couldn't hear you.
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Old 11-14-2005, 06:57 PM   #12
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Well... I agree that AutoX and road racing are both very challenging, but AutoX also involves an element not really present in road racing and that is reacting very very quickly but at a slow smooth pace, whereas in road racing there is generally 4-5x the amount of time between corners allowing you much more time to focus on each individual corner and set the car up just the way you like it. In autoX your mind has to be lightening quick, your body must be very swift, but you must be smoother than butter or you do end up goin too hot into corners, trying desperately to stay on course, and of course muscle'ing the car through the turns instead of having clean turn ins.

Drifting is almost always slower than slowing down a half a mile an hour more and getting better turn in, and getting back on throttle sooner. Though there are certain times when early power on power slides in a minor way can help you build boost and get out of a corner more quickly.

In autoX, sometimes the car that looks the slowest wins.. that's because just as important as it is to go fast, there are parts of the course like a hairpin, etc. when you have to know when and how much to go slow.

You didn't fair that badly, a lot of people absolutely blow their first attempt at autoX, stick with it, GO FOR RIDE ALONGS>>> LEMME REPEAT... TAKE EVERY RIDE ALONG YOU CAN proided the driver is more experienced or at the same level at you. You will learn more from others! Practice, practice, practice, and dont give up, EVER!
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Old 11-14-2005, 07:00 PM   #13
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Also, just as important as being fast is consistency. For your first run just try and get down a good time at 4/5 what you think you can do. Be consistent and know that you can always turn it up a notch next run. You don't want to be the guy who gets a nice score, then a terrible score, then a decent score, then an offcourse, and then one competitive score. You need to build both speed and consistency equally.

PS- if you havent hit a cone yet, you arent going fast enough... through the fast sections that is.

Good luck cone basher!
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Old 11-14-2005, 07:10 PM   #14
Timber wolf
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This is far from my being my first Autox... My first in the STI yes!
I have enjoyed being quicker than many higher hp cars with only my 325is in autox events here in NY. I just don't get many chances to get out there and practice.

If I misunderstood comments above, my apologies. (just noticed lots of flaming here vs porsche, bmw and corvette forums)
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Old 11-14-2005, 07:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theicewall

Good luck cone basher!
Didn't even bash one...
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Old 11-14-2005, 07:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
(just noticed lots of flaming here vs porsche, bmw and corvette forums)
Yeah, you'll find that here...........most children can't afford the above mentioned cars.

Quote:
Didn't even bash one...
Cause you didn't drive hard enough!
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:19 PM   #17
Timber wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider
Yeah, you'll find that here...........most children can't afford the above mentioned cars.;
I guess that happens to us 30 somethings when we buy something geared towards a younger demographic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider
Cause you didn't drive hard enough!
The STI is not that sexy...
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:29 PM   #18
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I did some instructional runs with some fairly new AX'ers and their STI's this weekend. They all under used their brakes ... and/or broke too late ... and thus set-up massive understeer. Their problems were not related to the brakes nor the handling of the car ... but instead to the nut behind the wheel. I also took a ride with one of our better drivers and even though I'm no slouch ... I was impressed how well he used his (BMW) brakes. My first race run on Sunday found me locking them all up and sliding past the hairpin. Can happen to all of us ... I didn't blame the brakes.

Timber ... I know National Champ AX drivers that use stock brakes and pads. They don't blame their brakes.
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider
Yeah, you'll find that here...........most children can't afford the above mentioned cars.

Cause you didn't drive hard enough!
It wasn't flaming. Nobody called you stupid or called you a bad name or said you were a this or that. This Motorsports forum is.....direct and to the point. Not much sugar coating here. Thicken up your skin a bit and you'll learn a lot from some of the crumudgens here. Keep in mind; I am not saying KC is crumudgeny

DMac
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makofoto
I did some instructional runs with some fairly new AX'ers and their STI's this weekend. They all under used their brakes ... and/or broke too late ... and thus set-up massive understeer. Their problems were not related to the brakes nor the handling of the car ... but instead to the nut behind the wheel. I also took a ride with one of our better drivers and even though I'm no slouch ... I was impressed how well he used his (BMW) brakes. My first race run on Sunday found me locking them all up and sliding past the hairpin. Can happen to all of us ... I didn't blame the brakes.

Timber ... I know National Champ AX drivers that use stock brakes and pads. They don't blame their brakes.
OK this has gotten out of hand. I'm out..
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:42 PM   #21
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We just tell you how it is instead of kissing your ass like people do at open BMW or Porsche track days. There is a reason I would catch and pass people in their GT2s and 911TTs like they were my bitches while driving a 3200lb 140hp NA Porsche 944. You sucked at your first autox, take it, learn more, get over it.

-Tom
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber wolf
OK this has gotten out of hand. I'm out..
More room for us!

-Tom
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Old 11-14-2005, 08:52 PM   #23
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wow... i thought this was good constructive critizism... i didnt see much rude replies, oh well
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Old 11-14-2005, 09:04 PM   #24
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OMG - Mako, perhaps one of the friendliest people on the forum, made someone leave due to his "harsh" criticism... too funny!
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Old 11-14-2005, 09:11 PM   #25
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I guess he like the rudeness more than the constructive critisism... but then again... he said he doesn't like the flaming... I'm confused.

Let's see...I'll start with my background in auto-x...4 time Solo-II trophy winner at Nats. 2003 STX National Champ for both Solo-II and ProSolo. 4th in BS this year. Auto-xing for 8 years now.

I would be the 1st to call someone out for giving bad advice on auto-xing on the net (not mods... just how to auto-x).

I haven't seen anything of that sort in this thread.

Like Tom said... we don't kiss ass and hand out 'attaboys' for medochre results.

EVERYONE including myself, can always learn to drive better in auto-x. Even the Daddios and Aros of the world still say they are constantly learning. You can only learn through constructive critisism.

Quote:
I guess that happens to us 30 somethings when we buy something geared towards a younger demographic.
And what the hell does that mean? I'm 36 and Mako.... I'm not even gonna GUESS!

If you want to really further your skills: http://www.autocross.com/evolution

Go there... find a school/date near you and learn from the best.
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