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Old 11-14-2005, 09:35 PM   #1
moby4dick
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Default Alky injection/safe power for 2.0?

Hey All,

All this talk of alky injection and higher power has got my mojo woikin...

I hear that it can increase your HP like 20-30%, for less than some fancy plumbing. So cool, but I'm just wondering if the stock block can handle a turbo upgrade plus the alky, which based on the HP increase, with the turbo I'm considering (DB Super 16g), would cause reliability issues with the block.

Or is it really just detonation that's the problem, and with a conservative tune I'll be okay?

MB
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:45 AM   #2
stu
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you can use alky and you will make more power, but it will be safer power. I is just like using higher octane gas but cheaper in the long run. I have been using it for about a year and I never have knock issues. good luck.


Later Jeff
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:03 AM   #3
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yes you should be fine.
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:15 AM   #4
samwY
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50/50 alky/water for performance
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:57 AM   #5
notraceready
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I just had my car retuned (conservative) with alky/water mix (50/50) and the sr30 turbo. I'll post graphs later but I got 292 whp and 275 torque. I don't believe that was 20-30 % more whp but probably 20-25 more ponies. My tuner said he was able to lean out the a/f ratio due to the alky and push the boost to 20 psi and still keep it safe. Perhaps with straight alky or methanol you could expect more gains.

Last edited by notraceready; 11-15-2005 at 09:59 AM. Reason: missing info
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:11 AM   #6
lowblow
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If anything it will help make the car last longer if tuned properly because the cylinders will experience lower temperatures while water and alky clean the inside of the engine.
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:19 PM   #7
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However, if your pump or whatever decides to fail wile WOT, you engine will be nuked.
I read engine will last no longer than 4 sec running that lean w/o alky.

but if you can live with that.. it's a great mod! tunning is everything tho im getting mine tuned this saturday! bigger your turbo is, you will gain more.. because you are basically getting power from more boost/timing/afr not from alky itself.
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:14 PM   #8
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I use 1 gallon denatured alky 2 gallons of water. I can hammer on the car all day long and it doesn't knock. My turbo(vf39) is going south, but the engine is fine. I guess 20 psi on that turbo wasn't a good idea
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:41 PM   #9
03blackwrx
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i have a stage 4 wrx, with a vf 34 turbo, before the alky i made 276 whp with 270wtq, now i make 297whp and 305 wtq, now tell me thats not worth the money, i can post the dyno comparrison in a couple hours when i am home
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:05 PM   #10
HerculesPeanut
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So how much do you guys spend per tank of gass on the alky?
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:25 PM   #11
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I spend 10 bux on a gallon of alky, and mix it with 2 gallons of water. I have a 3 gallon fuel cell in the trunk. 3 gallons lasts about 2-3 months.
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:36 PM   #12
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So what set-up are you using and how many miles do you drive?
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickyh
I use 1 gallon denatured alky 2 gallons of water. I can hammer on the car all day long and it doesn't knock. My turbo(vf39) is going south, but the engine is fine. I guess 20 psi on that turbo wasn't a good idea
That's exactly wat i'm planning to do. (If i don't get STi and STUCK with WRX) Please post up DYNO and full mods. Thanx
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerculesPeanut
So how much do you guys spend per tank of gass on the alky?

I buy sunoco methanol at 5 gallons for 30 bux. I mix about 40meth/60 water. I gained 30Hp, and 30ft lbs of tq on XXtuning's Dynapack, but I am using my smallest nozzle. My tuner, told me he went to the next size up on his car and it made a bigger difference. I am using a 175cc nozzle right now, and am going up to 325 IIRC, I have to check. Anyway. the bigger nozzle should let me easily go over 300 HP/300Tq. Here is my plot.


The lower lines were the baseline pull without WI, and the top lines are the gain that day with tuning.
I also found out later that day that my supply line from the pump to the intercooler had a crack in it and was leaking, so I tuned with a lower pressure getting to the nozzle. Without the crack, I probably could have squeezed more out. So when I get retuned I expect over 300 at the wheels on both figures.

Here is AFR/Boost:


Check out this forum, good info there.
http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/

But the gains are worth it, and real. I spent aboot $400 for the kit, and another $150 for tuning, and made those gains with a less than optimum injection pressure.

Here is the setup:
VF-22 at 22 lbs (I can vary using a turbosmart in cabin MBC) I use this for peak boost adjustment.
MRT TMIC
HKS downpipe with garage mod wastegate divorce pipe
TurboXS UP
UTEC
Ceramic coat stock exhaust mani
stromung catback
Perrin short ram
NGK double platnums gapped at .026
Snow Performance WI stg 2 kit with 175 nozzle (going to 325 though), set to spray partial at 9lbs, and 14 lbs full (snow uses a dual pressure controller to kick the pump on paritally at the lower pressure and turns it on fully at the higher pressure. That way you don't quench the spark/flame kernel under low engine load.) The pump pushes 100PSI+

DP

EDIT:
Of note the baseline dyno lines are low on a VF-22 because my tune was really rich because of a injector leak the day I got my original stg 4 tune. My tuner had to add a lot of fuel to keep from misfiring, and we didn't know we had a leak, until I found it a few days later. So once the leak was fixed, the car was really rich.

Also, here is a good source for meth:
http://highfuelsn.goemerchant7.com/index.cgi?PageToView=catalog&Department=81051&Cart id=283401067729423&Merchant=highfuelsn&ExpandedDep ts=81113|81050

Or if in New England,

http://highfuelsn.goemerchant7.com/index.cgi?PageToView=catalog&Department=81051&Cart id=283401067729423&Merchant=highfuelsn&ExpandedDep ts=81113|81050

DP

Last edited by DonkeyPunch; 11-15-2005 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:44 PM   #15
NavyBlueSubaru
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I have been running W.I. for a while now and it definitely helps out a lot. I recently switched back to 100% water, seeing as it actually removes more heat than the alcohol. I do not need the fuel properties of the alky, I have plenty of fuel already with modded stockers. Anyhow, I am able to run 20psi at 12:1 afr and it does not knock at all. I had a plug issue which caused knock in the past but since switching to proper plugs, I have not had ONE single knock event running like mentioned above. Btw, I am running a super16G style turbo that flows somewhat like an 18g, its a hybrid but anyways you should be fine with a big16G, 20psi and water/alky injection. It is a good way to make a solid 300whp if that is the direction you want to go.

I have a 1gph nozzle come on at 7psi and a second 1gph nozzle come on at 14psi. It equates to between 10-15% mix, which is a good ratio. 20% is about the max you want to run and no less than around 5 for the minimum. My windshield washer tank full of water has lasted me around 5 tanks of gas and its still like 40% full. Back when I was spraying a considerable amount more I would go through a tank per tank of gas but now its like it will never run out. When I wasnt running pure water I was running 50/50 isopropyl rubbing alcohol and water, which worked well but I just didnt need the alky in there.

Jeff

Last edited by NavyBlueSubaru; 11-16-2005 at 10:01 AM. Reason: wrong w.i. nozzle size...both are 1gph, not 1 then 2
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:04 AM   #16
Thran
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what kits are u guys running, because i dont knwo which kit is good for me ; (
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:08 AM   #17
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I have a quick question for you alky guys, you talk about switching from a 50/50 mix to a straight water mix, does this involve tuning? Iím sure the best results would involve tuning but is it safe to get tuned for straight water then add some alky?
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Old 11-16-2005, 12:21 AM   #18
NavyBlueSubaru
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Tuning is required. If you are running 50/50, you need to account for the extra fuel via alcohol when tuning. If you are running strait water then your A/F ratios will not be affected by the water you are injecting. If you are tuned with a 50/50 and switch over to strait water, you will be running leaner with the same tune. I would not suggest you do any W.I. tuning without a WB02 at a minimum.

Jeff
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:41 AM   #19
lowblow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thran
what kits are u guys running, because i dont knwo which kit is good for me ; (
I am getting the SMC kit...some people have had luck with the Alky Control and CoolingMist kits.

Like Navy stated...tuning is required if switching between mixes of alky and water because one of the main points of alky injection is to reduce the amount of gas injected while using the higher octane of methanol as a fuel source yso you can run more boost, timing and lower IDCs.

So if you get a tune for straight alcohol and then change it to a 50/50 mix, you will be lacking in the octane available for combustion, causing the engine to be prone to knock while running more timing advance and higher boost levels.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:25 AM   #20
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snow performance
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:45 AM   #21
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The reason I was asking is because I was thinking of running straight water and adding some alky in the winter to keep it from freezing.

Do you guys just turn it off in the winter or do you make sure to run an alky mix?
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Old 11-16-2005, 05:36 PM   #22
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Run alky or it will freeze. Check this out.

http://www.ashchem.com/adc/chemicals...=3&is_header=N
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Old 11-16-2005, 05:55 PM   #23
NavyBlueSubaru
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Yea thats a good point. Im in florida where it rarely drops below 80f.
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:50 PM   #24
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yeah, 83 today in north florida.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:52 PM   #25
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south louisiana. Hell it was 80 degrees yesterday.


I've been rockin the coolingmist setup for a while.
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