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Old 11-14-2005, 11:54 PM   #1
boost junkie
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Default jethot or swaintech?

anyone using either of these, specifically for a header? I need to have my APS header coated when it gets here. I'm leaning towards jethot because they were EXTREMELY helpful with customer service. they also said they would mask the flex joints and flanges. any comments?
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:14 AM   #2
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although i'm a strong supporter of JetHot, I think Swain's coating offers a significant advantage over jethot.

-It is thicker than Jethot which means it will insulate better.

Since the APS header is made of 310 Austenitic Stainless, it can handle the higher temperature that you'll force it to see with the external-only coating that Swaintech applies. I'd say Jethot is definitely preferred for parts that are either made of lower grade steels or have slight fitment problems. With higher grade steels that maintain much more strength and corrosion resistance at elevated service temperatures (like 310 or 321), the Swaintech becomes a more viable option, in my view.

Still though, I've seen the extreme durability and toughness of the Jethot and I trust it very highly. I am not 100% sure which I'll choose for my own APS header when I get it.
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:21 AM   #3
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swaintech... will be my choice when I send my header in.
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:44 AM   #4
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looks like I'll have to call swaintech tomorrow. will a single thicker layer on the outside only provide more insulation than a thinner layer on both inside and outside?
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:46 AM   #5
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that's a tough question.
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:50 AM   #6
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I wouldnt coat the inside, that crap can sometimes flake off and cause probs
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Old 11-15-2005, 01:48 AM   #7
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The issue with coating only the outside of a pipe is that it causes metal fatigue. A high quality and properly-applied coating on a pipe that is prepped correctly will not flake. We spend a lot of time baking, aluminum oxide blasting, and chemical bathing our pipes before coating them. As much as I completely try to avoid specifically comparing to another company, I'm going to do so with JetHot because they're huge and they're not another 'subaru-related' company: the coating that we use is of much higher quality and effectiveness than what is used by JetHot. I've received a lot of e-mails/PM's from people directly asking and making sure that we are not having JetHot coat our parts. I understand why, because I used to own a GP Moto header that was JetHot coated and it flaked very badly within a short amount of time. It was also noticeable on the dyno that it was not retaining as much heat as it should be, because spool-up times dropped significantly on the 2nd+ consecutive pull, meaning the manifold had to heat up and was actively radiating heat into the air.

SwainTech's coating is really cool. I haven't had a chance to actually test it out but it looks -- and on paper is -- very, very spiffy. I'd be a bit iffy on a turbo manifold doing only the outside, but considering the piping is fairly thin I don't think metal fatigue would be too large of a concern. It usually applies more to slightly thicker metal tubing and weld sections, and cast pieces, etc.

Anyway, if you were interested, we can also coat those headers for you. The APS ones with uppipe would run right around $120 I believe. We've got a thread on these types of services offered by us here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867312

Here's a test done by Comp Cams of the coating that we used to use. We have since switched to a coating that is even more effective and even more resilient to high temperatures. Our current coating gets done as a base coat and hits the oven at 500*, then gets a top coat and back in the oven at 700* for a complete cure. This test is a single coat of a slightly lesser-rated coating than we now use.



No third party tests of the new coating yet, but when the new run of downpipes arrives I'm going to snag one before it gets coated and run it in different scenarios and take temps w/ my infrared thermometer, and then get it coated and do the same tests over again.

Jeremy

btw -- I purchased a used Crucial uppipe off of a guy on here via his classifieds ad. A local customer wanted to install one before a rally event and we were out of stock. Anyway, the member said in his ad that it had 35,000 miles on it. When it arrived, I was extremely happy with the condition. The coating was perfect. Dirty as hell , but it was completely intact. No bare spots, no flaking, nada. The stuff is good.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie
anyone using either of these, specifically for a header? I need to have my APS header coated when it gets here. I'm leaning towards jethot because they were EXTREMELY helpful with customer service. they also said they would mask the flex joints and flanges. any comments?
I'd be reluctant to do an outside-only coating on 310 stainless. Although it is a low carbon (less than .04%) stainless alloy, it is not high-temp stabilized by Titanium like 321 stainless. It could still suffer from problems with the formation of chromium carbides despite the relatively low carbon content.

Also remember that most stainless steels have less than 1/5th of their room-temperature strength at 1600*F.

I'd look for an inside-and-out coating if I were in your place. Crucial's coating seems to hold up and insulate quite well.

-Adrian
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:35 AM   #9
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Crucial-Is there any type of warranty coverage against possible damage resulting from flaking, or would flaking cause damage should it occur inside the piping pre turbo.

The reason I ask is because this sounds like a great option and I am considering it for my H6 Header I am doing, however having invested so much money and time into this turbo H6 build, it would suck to have a 200 dollar coating(not sure exact cost) to take out a 2000 dollar turbo, if you know what i mean

your thoughts?

thanks for the help.

Ben
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:44 AM   #10
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hmm, after reading the process on your site, seems fairly thorough. What would the cost be for coating a header/uppipe/downpipe combo.

Also, does it come in any other colors I feel like getting creative, haha.

thanks

Ben
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHATsuby
hmm, after reading the process on your site, seems fairly thorough. What would the cost be for coating a header/uppipe/downpipe combo.

Also, does it come in any other colors I feel like getting creative, haha.

thanks

Ben
Actually -- just for the record -- we need to update the page on the coating process now that we're using a different coating. As mentioned in my first post, this new one stands up to even higher temperatures and is supposed to do a better job at insulating as well. Basically, the process is almost identical except there are two baking and coating steps for both the base coat and top coat. There's also no polishing at the end. This coat gives more of a flat black appearance vs. a semi-gloss black, and it has a little bit of texture to it vs. being nearly totally smooth.

No other colors! Any other pigment besides black does not hold up as well. We could do a blue, "gold", or gray coating but I don't necessarily recommend it. Black is functionally the best.

Looking at about $120 for header and uppipe [edit: actually probably closer to $150 because it's an H6 header, sorry], plus $55 to $75 for the downpipe depending on length, material, and condition. It's mostly an hourly type thing, so if more prep than usual is necessary it would be on the high end of the quote.... a bit of a buffer on either side. You only get charged what it actually ends up costing after it is done. We wont charge $150 just because we estimated it there and you agreed it might come out to it! If something is 'odd' for whatever reason, however, that might be cause for an increase in the original quote, we'll call you before doing anything.

Even if small bits of coating flake off, it's highly unlikely to be something that will harm your turbo. The pieces of carbon deposits that get blown out of your combustion chamber and through the exhaust and turbo are often larger than anything that could flake off of the headers. Most people would be really surprised to know the amount of small particles that actually go through the engine and exhaust as-is... BUT, we don't expect that sort of degredation of our coating regardless.

....not subscribed here, so please PM or e-mail (crucialracing@gmail.com) me if you'd like more information or want to pursue this route. Thanks!!!

Jeremy

btw -- here's a pic of a crosspipe we just did. I thought it looked real cool with the bare flex section all gold from the heat and the rest of the pipe black



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Old 11-15-2005, 06:23 AM   #12
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If Black is functionally best, then that is what I will do. My car is black anyways

emailing you.

thanks

Ben
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:43 AM   #13
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email sent

thanks

Ben
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:04 AM   #14
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Having had numerous headers, pistons, engine blocks (oil deflection), piston pins, and most recently entire head assemblies including ports coated by different companies...there is only one I will use: Swain Tech.

Ask around the "racing for a living" crowd.

S.
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:25 AM   #15
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I'd have to vote for Swaintech over Jet-hot just from the quality of the prepping done on the materials. My headers came from the manufacturer JetHot coated and I had to spend a good deal of time removing coating from flange surfaces and using a wire brush and tapping die to clean out all the threads on studs and bung ports. When I got my downpipe back from Swaintech I was amazed at the quality of the preperation. Not a single bit of "overspray" on any of the flanges and all the bolt threads were 100% clean except for 1 that had just a smidgen in the first thread. I've seen a few other locals get stuff coated at Swaintech and seen the same level of preperation on a few pieces. It gives one a good fuzzy feeling about a company when they spend the time to do things right the way you'd want it done.
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:39 AM   #16
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Ok, so we have established that overall the quality of swaintech is superior to that of jethot. the question remains, will an external-only coating really cause fatigue on 310 stainless? and which one will insulate better, external-only, or internal+external?
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:11 PM   #17
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another questioni you might want to know, is if coating in the inside will add a rough surface or a smooth surface.
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie
Ok, so we have established that overall the quality of swaintech is superior to that of jethot. the question remains, will an external-only coating really cause fatigue on 310 stainless? and which one will insulate better, external-only, or internal+external?
It will probably be ok to do an outside-only coating. It's just risky and I don't think whatever small increase in performance over the double-coating makes up for the increased risk of a broken header. But that's just my two-cents.
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Old 11-15-2005, 12:45 PM   #19
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I just spoke on the phone with Dan at swaintech and he told me a few things. First, he said increased fatigue will not be an issue when coating outside only. He also said the reason they do not coat the inside is that it is not possible to properly prep it so that the coating will adhere to the welds and joints, not to mention the surface itself. also, swain uses a molten ceramic, which is rated up to 15,000 degrees! whereas jethot and others use a 2000 degree insulating paint. it seems that there are several advantages to swain, and it's CHEAPER than jethot. I just need to confirm that what he told me about their coating not damaging the header is true, and my mind is made up.
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Old 11-15-2005, 01:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanj!
I'd have to vote for Swaintech over Jet-hot just from the quality of the prepping done on the materials. My headers came from the manufacturer JetHot coated and I had to spend a good deal of time removing coating from flange surfaces and using a wire brush and tapping die to clean out all the threads on studs and bung ports. When I got my downpipe back from Swaintech I was amazed at the quality of the preperation. Not a single bit of "overspray" on any of the flanges and all the bolt threads were 100% clean except for 1 that had just a smidgen in the first thread. I've seen a few other locals get stuff coated at Swaintech and seen the same level of preperation on a few pieces. It gives one a good fuzzy feeling about a company when they spend the time to do things right the way you'd want it done.
+1, experienced the same thing, should have gone swaintech
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:28 PM   #21
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Wow, lots of good info in this thread! My uppipe will be going to Swaintech.
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Old 11-15-2005, 04:14 PM   #22
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My question would be is Crucial Racings coating ceramic similar to Swain Tech? Or how do they all compare to one another.

Ben
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Old 11-15-2005, 04:23 PM   #23
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As everyone else said about swaintech, the quality was top notch and nothing was needed to be cleaned prior to installation.

After 4 track days this year in some pretty hot temps, the coating is holding up extremely well. I highly recommend them.

some pics:

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Old 11-15-2005, 05:11 PM   #24
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looks great! still waiting for a definitive answer on whether swaintech will cause premature fatigue or cracking.
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Old 11-15-2005, 05:23 PM   #25
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it seems impossible to say there is not increased fatigue or possibly creep by keeping more heat in the surface area of the metal, however, it all depends on the material if that increased thermal stress will cause a failure, swaintechs coatings seem nice, but I dont know if I would want to take the risk of failure also.

we need some more data or definitive evidence.

Ben
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