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Old 11-15-2005, 09:03 AM   #1
cfvwtuner
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Default Update/backdate rule, what can you actually do?

I picked up a MY95 L coupe AWD 5MT as my next autocross/Track car.
My plan is to run in STS.
Following the update/backdate rule, can I change the transmission and rear end to 2.5RS components? The better gearing would be nice, as would the rear LSD.

Next, is the engine "updatable" to the 2.5 motor? It was available in an impreza coupe, just a newer year. Can I mix the new engine with the old wiring harness and still be legal, or am I supposed to swap everything?

I assume brakes are updatable to rear disks. Can I go as far as WRX fronts, I'd like H6 rears, but being Legacy, I guess those are out.

Thanks for any input!
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:05 AM   #2
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I hope you didn't get the car specifically because of update/backdate in STS... because....there is no Update/Backdate in STS.

You can only do the allowed mods spelled out in the rule book for the class.

Brakes cannot even be converted to discs in the rear or larger in the front in STS... however it would be legal in STX to convert brakes because that class allws one to upgrade brakes whereas STS is like stock rules... with the addition of different lines. (Pads & lines for STS).

You cannot drop in the larger 2.5RS engine either or it's SM for you. (Regular Impreza is FSP and 2.5 RS is DSP.. so they're not even on the same line so you can't even swap any parts in SP at all, unless they're parts already allowed in the rules to be modified/replaced)

--kC

Last edited by KC; 11-15-2005 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:17 AM   #3
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Oh well.
I didnt get the car for STS, I wanted another project, and a $500 L that needs a transmission fit the bill.
I'll do the swap anyway. I run with CART, and I'm sure it wont be a problem there.
The trans and rear end are going to be done shortly, along with that will be rear sway bar and rear disk brakes.
The motor swap is a long way off I think.
Thanks KC!
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Old 12-15-2005, 03:13 PM   #4
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Think FSP.

There are a few earlier version of the Impreza that came with 4 wheel disk brakes. Something you would want.

Another great thing is that in '96, the Impreza L started to have dual port heads (I.E.) could run any of the popular EJ25 headers as it was dual port. Heck my friend has his EJ22 sitting in his garage from his '96 that is a dual port version as he swapped it out for an EJ22T Legacy engine.

I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years, but just can't justify it at this time. Engine work would be the biggest expense as the rest is pretty straight forward.

Good recipe there, find a 4 wheel disk L, find a dual port EJ22 and mix and match. Lighten it up and have some fun. With the current FSP competitors on paper it looks like it could be competitive in Pro and maybe in solo. But no one has every really prepped an FSP Impreza that I know of.

If I can, perhaps someday I'll be able to give it a try. I've made a list of everything I'd like to do and where to source most of it.

Wouldn't be upset if someone beat me to it... especially if it serves to be a lost cause. I do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.

Jon
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Old 12-15-2005, 03:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC
(Regular Impreza is FSP and 2.5 RS is DSP.. so they're not even on the same line so you can't even swap any parts in SP at all, unless they're parts already allowed in the rules to be modified/replaced)

--kC
That's the gist of Update/Backdate for Street Prepared. When looking in the rule book, cars are listed under classes.. and different trims of the same model are often bunched together on the same line. It allows more cars to be competative.

For instance, when I was running my 1.9L 88hp Ford Escort Station Wagon in FSP, I would have been allowed to drop in the 1.8L 127hp Escort GT engine and upgrade to the ZX2's stronger rear subframe and rear discs. This is only because all Escorts (1991+) are on the same line in the rule book.
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Old 12-15-2005, 03:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.
Today's lesson: the understatement
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:35 PM   #7
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Well, I dont know where I should be put now. I have the RS transmission and rear end installed. Still a NON LSD, but 4.11 gears instead of 3.90's
The rear disks are installed, but those were available on 94's with ABS. I have no ABS.
The drivers seat is now a stock 03 WRX seat.
My car has the dual port exhaust, I belive, so I guess I got lucky there.
Did some 1.8's only have a single exhaust pipe comming out the bottom of the heads, ouch for flow.

Our local club isnt as strict as the SCCA classification system, so I still think I'll run in STS. Tires are cheaper.
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Old 12-15-2005, 09:01 PM   #8
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Jon,

Think lighter than a 4 wheel disc L model. Think Brighton. You can UD / BD for the rear discs anyway.

Andy H.
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Old 12-16-2005, 01:36 AM   #9
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My 96 Brighton will see how this works out locally after the EJ22 goes in. I still need to take the plunge on one of those cool lookin OBX LSD's though....

I have to try and figure out what wheel/tire combo to run.....235/13, 225/15 215/16? Nobody makes cheap 13x8s with a 5x100mm pattern that I know of.....Other than steelies from Circle or something....and I want to test different setups on the super cheap before fully committing to anything.

Jay Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by omahasubaru
Think FSP.

There are a few earlier version of the Impreza that came with 4 wheel disk brakes. Something you would want.

Another great thing is that in '96, the Impreza L started to have dual port heads (I.E.) could run any of the popular EJ25 headers as it was dual port. Heck my friend has his EJ22 sitting in his garage from his '96 that is a dual port version as he swapped it out for an EJ22T Legacy engine.

I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years, but just can't justify it at this time. Engine work would be the biggest expense as the rest is pretty straight forward.

Good recipe there, find a 4 wheel disk L, find a dual port EJ22 and mix and match. Lighten it up and have some fun. With the current FSP competitors on paper it looks like it could be competitive in Pro and maybe in solo. But no one has every really prepped an FSP Impreza that I know of.

If I can, perhaps someday I'll be able to give it a try. I've made a list of everything I'd like to do and where to source most of it.

Wouldn't be upset if someone beat me to it... especially if it serves to be a lost cause. I do feel the L in FSP has a better chance than an RS in DSP though.

Jon
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Old 12-16-2005, 06:52 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omahasubaru
I have been toying with building an FSP Impreza for Pro Solo the last couple years
The problem I see with that is that I can't remember any East Coast Pro (haven't been to West Coast Pros to know) in the last 2 years that has actually had enough FSP competitors to make a class. So when FSP bumps into DSP, I'm thinking your FSP Impreza is pretty well screwed.
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Old 12-16-2005, 09:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
Jon,

Think lighter than a 4 wheel disc L model. Think Brighton. You can UD / BD for the rear discs anyway.

Andy H.
I don't *think* you can swap out full rear assemblies in UP/BD... but I may be wrong.

I looked into it at one time, but it was more of finding a FWD model and converting it to AWD... I'll have to review the rules and post back.

Storm,
Very good to know that you're considering an FSP L. I have a local line on a dual port EJ22 if you're looking from one. It's from a '96 L.

Please do report back on the OBX LSD. I really am curious how it performs as that is something I would really like to add to my car.
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Old 12-16-2005, 09:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcroy66
The problem I see with that is that I can't remember any East Coast Pro (haven't been to West Coast Pros to know) in the last 2 years that has actually had enough FSP competitors to make a class. So when FSP bumps into DSP, I'm thinking your FSP Impreza is pretty well screwed.
FSP competitors are increasing. It has died some, but I forsee more coming. Pro will be tough, but solo shouldn't be an issue. I think more people will strat looking to FSP since it is lacking in numbers. Hoping it will help their chances at a trophy or win.

Just my $0.02 I don't even have a car, so I won't be doing this anytime soon. Just making the switch from co-driving in STS this year, to co-driving in STX next year.
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Old 12-16-2005, 10:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
My 96 Brighton will see how this works out locally after the EJ22 goes in. I still need to take the plunge on one of those cool lookin OBX LSD's though....

I have to try and figure out what wheel/tire combo to run.....235/13, 225/15 215/16? Nobody makes cheap 13x8s with a 5x100mm pattern that I know of.....Other than steelies from Circle or something....and I want to test different setups on the super cheap before fully committing to anything.

Jay Storm
You have PM
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Old 12-16-2005, 11:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omahasubaru
Just making the switch from co-driving in STS this year, to co-driving in STX next year.
Good to hear. I think we may need all the folks we can get, considering how many people are leaving. You doing Pros too, or just Solo2?
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcroy66
Good to hear. I think we may need all the folks we can get, considering how many people are leaving. You doing Pros too, or just Solo2?
Just Solo. Will probablly only make one or two national tours. Planning on Arkansas currently.
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:01 PM   #16
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You have PM
If you PMed him about a source for 13x8" wheels for subaru's that will clear the stock L brakes, do tell!
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Old 12-16-2005, 01:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omahasubaru
FSP competitors are increasing. It has died some, but I forsee more coming. Pro will be tough, but solo shouldn't be an issue. I think more people will strat looking to FSP since it is lacking in numbers. Hoping it will help their chances at a trophy or win.
plus it's such a cool class; i think it's still very undeveloped, and one of the few classes where any number of cars can win. to me, that's part of the draw. i only wish my toyota could play there.

"For Slow People"...
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Old 12-16-2005, 01:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmitrik4
plus it's such a cool class; i think it's still very undeveloped, and one of the few classes where any number of cars can win. to me, that's part of the draw. i only wish my toyota could play there.

"For Slow People"...
I can tell you for certain that the VW guys would disagree. Now, it may be underdeveloped in the sense that not a very wide variety of cars compete.
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Old 12-16-2005, 03:36 PM   #19
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that's what i meant; "undeveloped" as a class, in the sense that not all possibly competitive cars have been tried, not "undeveloped" as far as the cars currently competing, esp the VWs.

compare to CSP (well, pre-boost rule CSP); not a wide variety of top cars to choose from.

edit: i suppose a lot of the SP classes are now up in the air, though. should be interesting.
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:00 PM   #20
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We use to have a decent little FSP contigent on the west coast at Pros. Taka in the GTS, Abe in the Scirroco, a Toyota Pickup, and a few others. It got kinda small though when the GTS got dumped into DSP. Have not really followed the class size the last two years.

Chris H.
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:12 PM   #21
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I want to see what happens in FSP. The RS in DSP has such a huge uphill battle against the current topdogs. The index is getting dragged ever faster and I'm about out of ideas to keep up. This gets me thinking that FSP might be a better match for the lower power Imprezas. I wouldn't expect the RS to go to FSP, and I wouldn't want it to. But for the current cars in FSP, I'm thinking a superlight car with the right UD/BD build could be pretty competitive.

I would never consider building a project or NOT building a project based on whether the class will get bumped at a Pro anyway (I don't do this for money). Frankly I don't really know why FSP attendance numbers would be brought up at all. It wouldn't matter if it got bumped since I could just switch to the "other" car anyway.

Although the current top cars in FSP have been fairly well established and have decades of development, I believe that this would be a good fit. Budget minded, fun and hopefully competitive!!!

PMs have been answered....thanks.
Jay Storm
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Old 12-16-2005, 04:29 PM   #22
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Good answer. I origionally posed the question in case I ever wanted to run with the big dogs at the SCCA. This came about after my last car, a Neon, on a Neon board discussion. I was told I couldnt run STS because the pressboard cover over the spare tire was gone.
I bought this L because I miss my 99RS as an autocross toy. I'm starting to do track events and wanted something fun there also. The low power doesnt bother me too much, it will keep me out of trouble.
The 2.5 Big Block will come for next season.
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Old 12-16-2005, 05:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
I would never consider building a project or NOT building a project based on whether the class will get bumped at a Pro anyway (I don't do this for money). Frankly I don't really know why FSP attendance numbers would be brought up at all. It wouldn't matter if it got bumped since I could just switch to the "other" car anyway.
I brought it up because omahasubaru specifically said he was considering building a FSP L for ProSolo. So while it'll have the AWD launch advantage at a ProSolo, it would probably not be enough to overcome the time differential if FSP bumps due to attendance.

IIRC Alex won DSP at the 2004 Peru Pro by over 3 seconds, and I'm pretty sure he was sandbagging HARD to keep it that close. The FSP guys who bumped into DSP (which helped make DSP a class) just didn't stand a chance.
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Old 12-16-2005, 07:06 PM   #24
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cfvwtuner, was the cover permanently attached? if it's just sitting there like normal tire covers, you could take it out anyway. if people wouldn't let you run (regionally, at least) w/out it, that's a pretty weenie protest, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm
But for the current cars in FSP, I'm thinking a superlight car with the right UD/BD build could be pretty competitive.
i don't think an impreza (or any AWD car) is going to be considered "superlight" among the ~1700 VWs and such. but it could be significantly more powerful, with more grip.

kugler's car is ~2000lbs and ~120whp, i think, on 225/13 tires (plus, of course, him driving!). that's the FSP benchmark.

i think what limits the usefulness of the subie's AWD in FSP is that you have really light cars on wide, sticky tires, w/ really good diffs. i don't know if the traction advantage is going to be enough. but maybe!

my choice: a 1st gen protege w/ the BP motor....CSP miata power, 2200lbs!
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Old 12-16-2005, 07:35 PM   #25
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It was stated that because the neon had a thumbscrew on the pressboard panel, it was permanently attached.
The exact same panel on a subaru is just sitting there and legal to remove.
HUH?!!?
If that is true, you shouldnt be able to remove spare tires either, they are bolted down.
I ran in STS without the entire trunk carpeting, it got wet and smelled like mold and mildew real bad. If people think the 2 pounds of carpeting is why a 140K mile neon beat them, I'd gladly throw a weight in the rear to match the carpet weight.

I run at a local level, and do so to enjoy myself. KC knows our local group.

Last years battle in FSP was between my wifes Focus, and a Spitfire she called "the little green booger" By seasons end the spitfire driver was calling it the same thing.

I think that alot of the SCCA people take it way too serious.
At tri states we had a SCCA guy throw a huge protest at the drivers meeting because we were going to count pointer cones the same as regular cones. Know what, dont hit the friggin cones! I probbily only hit 2 or 3 all season!

Eh, now it's rambling...

Last edited by cfvwtuner; 12-16-2005 at 07:38 PM. Reason: speeeeling stinks
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