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Old 11-17-2005, 07:49 PM   #1
Arnie
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Default RallyX rules for 06

Here are the basic new rules for nationals and we'll see if the the regions adopt them. The exact wording is not yet set in stone.

http://www.coloradorallycross.org/rules-2006.htm

further discussions:

http://www.awdpirates.net/phpBB2/vie...er=asc&start=0

discuss.
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:14 PM   #2
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can of worms <- opened

Last edited by cowapult; 11-17-2005 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:15 PM   #3
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Well that looks pretty simple, unlike the current rules.
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Old 11-18-2005, 01:05 AM   #4
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Have a Nice Day?

A few comments (Since I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't want to sign up on another forum):

* A '99 2.5RS will be competing against a '06 STi in 4A?
* Is this something created by the SCCA or by Colorado RallyX?
* so this basically says the following are not allowed ever, right?
Fully Ajdustable shocks (DMS, Tein HG, etc)
Seam welding
Quick steering rack
Turbo plumping (or do those fall under "Hoses")
...Any stage rally car above Production class

Its sad that the cars that are always fun to watch (Open/RM4/etc) won't be allowed to play at all. Further, you're allowing people who can shell out for rally tires in the same classes as stock cars. i.e. within my allowed and limited modification, I can put 15" rally tires (and required brakes) on a 06 STi with a piggy back ECU and turbo back exhaust (lets say ~350ft/lb) and be racing against stock 02 WRXs on RE92s. I hardly count that as fair or even.

Is there an open request for comments anywhere?

Last edited by pcowan; 11-18-2005 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 11-18-2005, 01:49 AM   #5
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You will be allowed to play with basically whatever you want, you will just be moved up into the Modified class. To stay in the stock classes you must have 3 or less of the mods. With all those mods you listed you wouldn't be in stock class anymore so you wouldn't be competing against a stock WRX.

It actually seems pretty fair to me. That way a full rally prepped PGT car won't be up against a stock RS.
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Old 11-18-2005, 08:44 AM   #6
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I still think that non-metal alternate mounts and bushings should be allowed in the lowest classes -- without having to choose between them and say rally tires for example. They're not going to be a huge performance advantage, but they will increase reliability - and breaking an engine mount or suspension bushing should not be something that should determine whether you win or lose.
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Old 11-18-2005, 09:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred
breaking an engine mount or suspension bushing should not be something that should determine whether you win or lose.
You've broken engine mounts at a rally-x?!? Wow. People in the northeast might remember the days when Otis Dimiters won every rally-x he went to in his beat ass nearly stock 98 RS. After over 40 rally crosses the thing is the biggest POS RS you'll ever see, but the engine mounts are still original, and he still wins events in it. I do agree with your other logic - it's not enough of an advantage to make a difference, so why exclude them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcowan
* A '99 2.5RS will be competing against a '06 STi in 4A?
This past weekend at the Rally NY Rally-x I beat 2 STIs, one fully rally prepped, and 4 or 5 WRXs in my '98 RS with minimal power mods. I was against this rule too at first, but I've accepted it now (mostly because my coilovers put me in modified anyway!). My only question is, how many cars are really going to be in 4B? 2.2L Imprezas and Legacies, but what else? A 2.2L Impreza could be just as fast as an RS in the right hands, but you don't even see many of them at rally-x anyway.

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Old 11-18-2005, 09:35 AM   #8
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"not allowed" means "not allowed in stock class"

The three lists of mods go something like this:
list 1) mods allowed in stock class
list 2) mods you can run in stock class as long as you don't have more than 3 of them. If you have more than any 3 of these - you're modified.
list 3) mods that immediately bump you to modified if you have even 1 of them


These are not Colorado's, these are the national rules we have been working on all year. That said, each region can take it or leave it.

I've never seen an STI outperform an RS in a rallycross. Could that be because I've never seen STI driver come out who knew how to drive? Maybe. But you also have to admit that an RS weighs 500 lbs less. And, what on earth are you going to do with that extra 140 hp when you are in 2nd gear with no traction? Nothing productive, just make cool rooster tails.
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
You've broken engine mounts at a rally-x?!? Wow.
You're reading too much into what I said - I didn't say I had broken anything, and I didn't say I was talking about Subarus.

Quote:
I've never seen an STI outperform an RS in a rallycross.
Hopefully that will change after this weekend.
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:52 AM   #10
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Default limited mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred
I still think that non-metal alternate mounts and bushings should be allowed in the lowest classes -- without having to choose between them and say rally tires for example. They're not going to be a huge performance advantage, but they will increase reliability - and breaking an engine mount or suspension bushing should not be something that should determine whether you win or lose.
As a key player in the writing of the new rules, I'll share the logic on this one and one other:

The deal with bushings (and some of the other debateable items on the limited list) is to not automatically bump a vehicle that shows up with, in this case, aftermarket bushings. I pushed very hard to be realistic about what enthusiasts tend to do to their cars. From a regular competitor point of view, the Limited list may seem "limiting," but it still allows more creativity than anything to ever come out of SCCA.

Someone else was questioning the early 2.5RS in 4A. I personally insisted that 2.5s were the cutoff for the top 4WD class. Most people agree that it is completely competitive in RX.

Finally, the class 4B should be an excellent grassroots AWD class. 2.2 Imprezzas, AWD Civics, Justies, older 1.8 Subies, etc.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:09 AM   #11
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the excluded (from production) modifications all seem to make sense. but the limited modifications seem a bit vague at times to me.

however, i see what you are trying to do w/them. you are truying to keep a kid w/a CF hood and some springs and a accessport from being pushed into the mod class and thus scared away from rallyx.

are non adjustable shocks/struts a "free" mod? like the KYB GR-2 or any other non adjustable unit like a tockico or bilstien. or are they a "limited" mod?

what is the appendix note regarding rally tires? i dont see the appendix anywhere.

not sure how i feel about wheel dimensions being a limited mod, they have always been "free." that being said, a smaller diameter tire can be a huge advantage by slightly changing the final drive ratio in a favorale way.

it could be argued that the interior trim panels and the door panels are the same thing.

so what defines an interior trim panel?

i see no mention of the dash. is that considered a trim panel?

what about the headliner, is that a trim panel?

you mention underdrive pulleys. what about stock diameter light pulleys? they are not underdrive pulleys but they do reduce rotating mass a bit and give just as much of a minimal benefit as a underdrive pulley.

if i am reading this right it would seem that a front and rear sway bar would count as one limited mod. is that correct?

if so, does that mean that a ground control coil over conversion kit w/springs and adjustable perches would count as one of the three mods as well? or would the springs be one and then the coilover sleeve kit be another?

also if the manufacturer of the harness says that the harness should be mounted to a harness bar can that be added and not considered one of the 3 limited mods? because that is technically not a chassis stiffener but it would also have that added effect.

i think i need to find a old corolla fx-16 GTS for P-2B. then strip the interior trim panels (1st limited mod), pull the carpet (2nd limited mod), put one some good camber/castor plates (3rd limited mod), get some nokian hakka Qs, swap in a lightweight set of racing seats w/a good harness, do all the other "free" mods and have one killer little production based rallyx machine. a car like this could probably be put together for under $2,000 (probaly closer to $1500) and be an absolute blast and in the right hands probably take an overall win at most rallycrosses. light weight and traction are key. i am torn between camber plates and rally tires. on a car that small the rally tires may just add too much rotational mass and end up hurting the car more than helping. so i am leaning more towards camber plates. i would pull the AC as the 3rd mod but i think you can get these cars w/out AC.

or, i could replace the hood fenders and rear hatch w/CF panels rather than put camber plates on and have a VERY light and legal P-2B car. granted it would be VERY expensive as well but it would be legal and light as hell. i would guess under 2,000 pounds. hell, even w/out using CF i bet this car would be close to 2,000 pounds anyway.

however, would the factory mounted strut tower/firewall bracing (that is on all old GTS toyotas) bump the car into the 2M class? i would hope not.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowapult
I've never seen an STI outperform an RS in a rallycross. Could that be because I've never seen STI driver come out who knew how to drive? Maybe.
Mark Utecht has a stock 04 STi for rallyx and he is nearly unbeatable in it w/the Nokian WRs on the 17s. and we have some skilled drivers in a RS as well. however, he would proably beat himself in the STi if he drove a RS at the same event.

the only vehicle that occasionaly beats him is Jim Cox's crazy rally truck. unless the course is VERY tight then the rest of us have a chance to get close to him. or if he gets abit to throttle happy and takes out a couple cones. but that doesnt happen very often.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmodular
Finally, the class 4B should be an excellent grassroots AWD class. 2.2 Imprezzas, AWD Civics, Justies, older 1.8 Subies, etc.
i agree w/this.

i think that is awesome. that will be a very fun AWD classs. i wish stage rally would do that.
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Old 11-18-2005, 11:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmodular
As a key player in the writing of the new rules, I'll share the logic on this one and one other:

The deal with bushings (and some of the other debateable items on the limited list) is to not automatically bump a vehicle that shows up with, in this case, aftermarket bushings. I pushed very hard to be realistic about what enthusiasts tend to do to their cars. From a regular competitor point of view, the Limited list may seem "limiting," but it still allows more creativity than anything to ever come out of SCCA.
i agree w/this too. despite what my previous long winded post might lead people to believe. i was looking at the rules from a analytical/clarification point of view.

the most limiting thing in rallycross is the dirt surface we choose to compete on. it changes throughout the day and no matter how modified and powerfull a car is it really doesnt matter if you cant put the power to the ground.

personally i really liked the 3 level rule concept from last year it had a nice middle gound between rally cars and production cars.

production-no mods.

modified-some mods. i liked this level the best.

rally/open-anything goes.

but i agree that there were too many classes in that system. we dont have the numbers to fill that many classes yet.

no rule set will be perfect for everyone. but hey, thats just how it works. and it is our job as competitors to give feedback and to try and fit our cars to the rule provided.

i am not totally thrilled that my car will go into the mod class based on the things we did to conform to the short lived rules from last year. we have rally tires, pulled the carpet, the rear seats, the trunk interior trim and carpet, as well as most of the interior trim. but oh well. i will still be competing against the same cars as before.

i wish that the mod class had a distinction between G5 ande G2 though.

my hypothetical FX/16 doesnt stand a chance against a well built G5 Omni GLH-S.

However, the argument could be made that it is my own damn fault for building an uncompetitive car so...
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmodular
Finally, the class 4B should be an excellent grassroots AWD class. 2.2 Imprezzas, AWD Civics, Justies, older 1.8 Subies, etc.
Do you see these cars out at rally crosses already? I don't see that many. At least not as often as RS'.

Thanks for putting the effort into the rules! I'm planning on using them unmodified when Philly has another rally-x. I will add my own tire and cage restrictions to my supps, but I'll use the classes the way they are (I require tires to have enough tread depth, and I require that all cages conform to some legitimate governing body rules).

Alex
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:40 PM   #16
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[quote=Car #187]Do you see these cars out at rally crosses already? I don't see that many. At least not as often as RS'.

Yes, the 2.2s and Civc AWDs are pretty common out here. My main race car is the Civc AWD, but it is heavily modified. I did, however, post fastest overall time in a bone stock Civc AWD in a recent RallyCross.
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg donovan
the excluded (from production) modifications all seem to make sense. but the limited modifications seem a bit vague at times to me.

however, i see what you are trying to do w/them. you are truying to keep a kid w/a CF hood and some springs and a accessport from being pushed into the mod class and thus scared away from rallyx.

>exactly

are non adjustable shocks/struts a "free" mod? like the KYB GR-2 or any other non adjustable unit like a tockico or bilstien. or are they a "limited" mod?

>free

what is the appendix note regarding rally tires? i dont see the appendix anywhere.

>basically the tire list from the 2005 rules

not sure how i feel about wheel dimensions being a limited mod, they have always been "free." that being said, a smaller diameter tire can be a huge advantage by slightly changing the final drive ratio in a favorale way.

it could be argued that the interior trim panels and the door panels are the same thing.

>the intent here is to make it impossble for a stripped car to qualify as "stock"

so what defines an interior trim panel?

>the gist of this draft is "intent." If we can avoid over-writing them, we will. If you see gross loopholes and have suggestions for tbetter language, let us know.

i see no mention of the dash. is that considered a trim panel?

> If I had to choose, I would call that an excluded mod

what about the headliner, is that a trim panel?

>yes

you mention underdrive pulleys. what about stock diameter light pulleys? they are not underdrive pulleys but they do reduce rotating mass a bit and give just as much of a minimal benefit as a underdrive pulley.

>Tough to discern whether an aftermarket pulley is stock diameter or not. Might be good to add "lightweight" to that item.

if i am reading this right it would seem that a front and rear sway bar would count as one limited mod. is that correct?

>yes, each line item is an "any or all" situation

if so, does that mean that a ground control coil over conversion kit w/springs and adjustable perches would count as one of the three mods as well? or would the springs be one and then the coilover sleeve kit be another?

>springs and perches is one item

also if the manufacturer of the harness says that the harness should be mounted to a harness bar can that be added and not considered one of the 3 limited mods? because that is technically not a chassis stiffener but it would also have that added effect.

>correct

i think i need to find a old corolla fx-16 GTS for P-2B. then strip the interior trim panels (1st limited mod), pull the carpet (2nd limited mod), put one some good camber/castor plates (3rd limited mod), get some nokian hakka Qs, swap in a lightweight set of racing seats w/a good harness, do all the other "free" mods and have one killer little production based rallyx machine. a car like this could probably be put together for under $2,000 (probaly closer to $1500) and be an absolute blast and in the right hands probably take an overall win at most rallycrosses. light weight and traction are key. i am torn between camber plates and rally tires. on a car that small the rally tires may just add too much rotational mass and end up hurting the car more than helping. so i am leaning more towards camber plates. i would pull the AC as the 3rd mod but i think you can get these cars w/out AC.

or, i could replace the hood fenders and rear hatch w/CF panels rather than put camber plates on and have a VERY light and legal P-2B car. granted it would be VERY expensive as well but it would be legal and light as hell. i would guess under 2,000 pounds. hell, even w/out using CF i bet this car would be close to 2,000 pounds anyway.

however, would the factory mounted strut tower/firewall bracing (that is on all old GTS toyotas) bump the car into the 2M class? i would hope not.
>the party line on model crossover parts is that the parts must match the VIN. No updating or backdating. As far as your FX goes, most old cars end up in Mod classes to make them competitive. The exception in the new classes is 4B and 2C. Glad to see the creative juices flowing.
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg donovan
Mark Utecht has a stock 04 STi for rallyx and he is nearly unbeatable in it w/the Nokian WRs on the 17s. and we have some skilled drivers in a RS as well. however, he would proably beat himself in the STi if he drove a RS at the same event.

the only vehicle that occasionaly beats him is Jim Cox's crazy rally truck. unless the course is VERY tight then the rest of us have a chance to get close to him. or if he gets abit to throttle happy and takes out a couple cones. but that doesnt happen very often.
I'm still tickled that folks still identify one vehicle beating another. These impressions go away quickly when you get your top drivers to pilot all types of cars on the same course. We run RX schools pretty regularly, which gives the instructors a chance to sample and compare a lot of different vehicles. We also trade cars from time to time, which is a great eye-opener.
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Old 11-18-2005, 01:03 PM   #19
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Yeah, I think it's all moot. A faster car or a more modded car helps, but not much. We will still get cars from the "slowest" class taking overall wins.
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Old 11-18-2005, 01:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmodular
I'm still tickled that folks still identify one vehicle beating another. These impressions go away quickly when you get your top drivers to pilot all types of cars on the same course. We run RX schools pretty regularly, which gives the instructors a chance to sample and compare a lot of different vehicles. We also trade cars from time to time, which is a great eye-opener.
to continue the theme of the day i would also agree w/that.

at one course i layed out utecht raced his GN WRX and also ran in his old G5 omni GLH-S. he ran alot faster in the omni. it was a very tight course.

surprisingly one of the quickest rallyx cars to have shown up at our events was a stripped 4spd FWD justy w/no rear hatch. this car has been driven by several different drivers. before the owner sold it it was dubbed the rally go kart. he now wants to build a mid engined RWD justy powered by a snowmobile engine w/a CVT used from the snowmobile. not sure if that will get past the parts scavenging level it is at now or not but if it does it will be awesome.

i too think the dash should be an excluded mod. once the dash is gone you no longer have a street car.

so the headliner and centerconsole and trim around the doors (A,B,C pillars)and what not all count as one mod? on a sedan would the trim in the trunk be included in this mod?

the door cards then count as a second mod?

and then the carpet would count as a third? does this include carpet in the trunk as well?
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Old 11-18-2005, 01:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmodular
>the party line on model crossover parts is that the parts must match the VIN. No updating or backdating. As far as your FX goes, most old cars end up in Mod classes to make them competitive. The exception in the new classes is 4B and 2C. Glad to see the creative juices flowing.
i didnt mean take the bracing from a GTS and put it on another non GTS car. i was wondering if the brace, as installed from the factory, would count as a mod.

i could come up w/a mild to wild car for every class you have.

in fact i just may do that.
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Old 11-18-2005, 01:58 PM   #22
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one other thing that i am not sure about is having a big motor NA stock car and a small motor stock car in the same FWD production class.

under this ruleset a rx-7 and a FWD impreza w/a 1.8 are in the same class.

that could be a bit unfair.

but as i said before it is the builders choice to build an uncompetitve car so the rules shouldnt try to make it fair for every car.

yet again i have argued both sides.

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Old 11-18-2005, 02:46 PM   #23
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Those cars wouldn't be in the same class.

And yes, you have definitely contradicted yourself
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Old 11-18-2005, 02:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowapult
Those cars wouldn't be in the same class.

And yes, you have definitely contradicted yourself
oops forgot about the RWD class.

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Old 11-18-2005, 03:00 PM   #25
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the more i look at the classes the more i like them. this requires alot of thought.

where i get some doubts is the limited mods. but even they are begining to make sense the more i think about them.

i actually had a hard time coming up w/a third mod for the hypothetical FX-16 GTS that wouldnt be a waste of time or money that would actually make a big difference.
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2005 SCCA RallyX Rules element533 Bay Area Impreza Club Forum -- BAIC 11 03-28-2005 03:08 AM
2005 SCCA National RallyX Rules MarkA Motorsports 33 01-29-2005 10:14 AM


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