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Old 11-18-2005, 09:22 AM   #1
RemlapaN
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Default Help to eliminate knock on hydra

So, ive been feeling the knock retard kicking over the last week in my hydra, and i decided to do some datalogging today to help see when, and why.

Car Setup: 04 Sti, Mods: Downpipe, intake. Stock injectors, Stock turbo.

The thing that is confusing me is that my AFR seems like it is where it needs to be, unless the WB is reporting the wrong AFR, however I just installed the WB last week, so I dont see how it could be bad already. WB is located about 6" after the turbo, but before the cat. I did calibrate it to 20.8 outside of the exhaust before installing it.

The other thing, is above 4500rpm, my EGTs are always above 900c. On a long hard run in 5th, EGTs can go over 950C, which seems way too high to me.

EDIT: This was using 93 octane fuel.

Here is a short clip from the datalogger:

Code:
time	coolant AFR	engine	tps	boost	speed	knock	air	IDC	knock	wastegt cell	cell	pulsew	vacuum timing 
stamp	temp (C)(:1)	(rpm)	(%)	(psi)	(mph)	(V)	(C)	(%)	(V)	(%)	X(n)	Y(n)	(ms)	(mmHg)	(deg)

14200	83	12.6	5600	97.6	7.2	93	0.52	6	74.4	0	76.4	20	16	15.7	0	26
14400	83	11.2	5050	98.8	15.6	94	0.58	6	92.8	0	61.2	17	21	20.8	0	17
14600	82	10.6	4750	99.2	18.7	96	0.76	6	96	0	57.2	16	23	21.8	0	15
14800	82	10	4850	99.2	18.4	97	0.78	6	90.8	0.4	56.4	16	22	21.4	0	16
15000	82	9.9	4900	99.2	17.5	98	0.86	6	96.4	0	56.4	16	23	22.1	0	16
15250	82	9.7	5000	99.2	18.1	99	0.72	6	95.2	0.6	57.6	17	22	21.4	0	17
15500	81	9.7	5050	99.6	18.1	101	0.8	6	98	0.3	56.8	17	22	20.8	0	17
15750	81	9.6	5100	99.2	17.2	102	0.74	6	97.6	0.8	59.2	17	22	21.8	0	17
16000	81	9.7	5150	99.2	17.2	103	1	6	96.8	4.8	58.8	17	23	22.7	0	13
16250	81	9.9	5200	99.6	16.8	104	0.72	6	95.6	2.3	59.6	18	22	21.8	0	16
16500	81	9.7	5250	99.6	17.5	105	0.82	6	95.2	0	58.8	18	22	21.4	0	18
16750	81	9.6	5300	99.2	16.5	106	1.04	5	95.2	2.4	59.2	18	22	21.4	0	16
17000	81	9.9	5400	99.2	16.2	108	0.74	6	100.8	1.8	60	19	22	21.1	0	18
17200	80	9.9	5450	99.2	17.2	108	0.8	6	98.4	0	60.4	19	21	20.8	0	21
17400	80	9.7	5500	99.6	16.8	110	0.84	6	98.4	0.3	60.4	19	21	19.8	0	21
17600	80	9.9	5550	99.2	15.9	111	0.78	5	102	4	61.6	19	21	19.8	0	18
17800	80	9.9	5600	99.2	15.9	112	0.8	6	100.4	3.3	61.6	20	22	21.4	0	18
18000	79	9.9	5650	99.2	16.2	113	0.92	6	98.4	4.6	60.8	20	22	21.1	0	17
18250	78	9.9	5700	98.8	16.5	113	1.06	6	99.2	3.8	60.4	20	21	21.1	0	19
18500	79	9.9	5750	99.2	15.9	114	0.76	5	96.4	1.1	61.6	20	21	20.5	0	21
18750	79	9.9	5750	99.2	15	115	1.02	6	97.6	3.2	61.6	21	21	20.8	0	19
19000	79	9.9	5800	99.2	15.3	116	0.9	6	102	8.4	62	21	21	21.4	0	14
19200	79	9.9	5850	99.2	15.3	117	0.96	6	102	9.6	61.6	21	21	20.2	0	13
19400	79	9.9	5900	98.8	16.2	118	1.04	5	102	10.8	61.2	21	21	20.2	0	12
19600	79	9.9	5900	99.6	15	118	0.72	6	100.4	7.9	62	21	21	21.4	0	15
19800	79	9.9	5950	99.2	15.9	119	0.86	6	102	10.1	61.6	21	21	19.8	0	12
20000	78	9.9	6000	98.8	15.3	119	0.8	5	102	9.3	62.4	22	21	21.4	0	14
20250	78	9.9	6000	98.8	15.6	120	0.84	5	102	10.1	61.6	22	21	20.2	0	13
20500	78	9.9	6000	99.2	15.3	121	0.92	5	102	11.3	62.4	22	21	21.8	0	12
20750	78	10	6100	99.2	15.9	121	0.68	5	102	8.3	63.2	22	21	20.2	0	15
21000	78	9.9	6350	12	5.3	122	0.9	5	64.4	7.3	79.2	23	12	9.6	0	24
21250	77	10.6	5700	0	0	121	0.54	5	3.2	4.5	0	20	3	0.3	525	26
21500	78	10.6	5350	20.8	0	121	0.36	6	10	1.8	0	18	4	1.9	426	32
21750	78	14.2	5150	35.6	0	120	0.34	5	26	0	0	17	8	5.8	99	33
22000	78	14.7	4700	36	0.9	121	0.38	6	34	0	0	15	12	8	0	30
My first thought is too much boost on the stock fuel and turbo, however AFRs seem very good - indicating that the car isnt running too lean, but that does not explain the high EGTs.

Below are links to my current hydra map, as well as the entire datalog of the run, not just the clip from above.

Car is running in open-loop mode only at the moment, fuel map was achieved using autotune from 1500-7500rpm.

Click here for full Data log

Click here for hydra map

Any help would be highly appreciated.
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:12 AM   #2
DarthChicken
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You're high EGTs and knock are caused by too rich of a mixture. At 15.7 - 17.2psi, you're A/F targets in your map at 11.6 to 11.3, but your datalog shows you hitting 9.9:1 in a lot of places, sometimes 10.1:1... WAY too rich.

I know you say you are autotuning, but what gear? You can't just drive around and stab the throttle here and there and get a good autotune, you have to do pulls in high gears, for low to high rpm. At least 3rd gear, 4th gear is better. What I do is start at like 2000rpm and do a pull all the way to 7000rpm. Over and over. Also do some 5th and 6th gear pulls starting at the same RPM, but only take it as high as 4000 to 4500rpm... just work on the spoolup is what your doing there.

Kick up your autotune rate to 28 across the RPMs as well, 16 is too slow.

And, most importantly IMO... is check your throttle pump numbers. If its set too high for your start RPM (where you start a pull), you'll end up with a dip in your map where it will pull fuel to compensate.... too low, and it will add fuel at that RPM to compensate.
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Old 11-18-2005, 10:36 AM   #3
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Wait, running too rich can cause knock!? That explains a LOT!

Shane
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:20 PM   #4
jblaine
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"The thing that is confusing me is that my AFR seems like it is where it needs to be"

Nowhere near close, as DarthChicken said.
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:24 PM   #5
bboy
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I'd turn your boost down about 2 psi. You are blowing hot air and you are "off the map" in terms of fueling. More boost is not more power.

If your AFRs don't go up (because you back in a safe range of the map) and knocking ceases, I'd look at your Air Temp adjustment. You IAT is 7C, you could be adding too much fuel at that temp.

I agree with Darth, do a WOT pull from 2000 RPM. Click the "tracking" button so you can see where you've been in the fuel map.

Quote:
Car is running in open-loop mode only at the moment, fuel map was achieved using autotune from 1500-7500rpm.
No auto tuning on boost. That would be a seriously "advanced level" tuning method. Have you looked at the AFR target table up there?
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Old 11-18-2005, 12:48 PM   #6
DarthChicken
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Bboy....

More boost is more power. Turning the boost down to 2psi isn't gonna do anything. He's not blowing hot air, he's way rich. The knock has nothing to do with his timing or his boost, he's just misfiring his way through the map (and its showing up as knock).

Air temp adjustment has nothing to do with this, he's running too much fuel in his map.

And yes... autotune on boost. Its the easiest way to dial the car in, at least get it close. Thats why you have a A/F target table. I've autotuned 3 cars now (two just sitting in the passenger seat monitoring progress and knock). Its the most effective way of achieving the correct curve, from which you can modify and smooth to achieve the perfect tune.
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Old 11-18-2005, 03:01 PM   #7
RemlapaN
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ok thanks for the tips, I will try going back to the base-map and autotuning again, in the method described above.

This could also explain the horrid fuel economy the car has had lately

I was looking back through some logs from a few days ago as well, and with an 11:1 AFR, there was significantly less knock, but this was with an IAT of 20c - not 7. Same map however. So perhaps the correction maps are a bit off, and thats the reason i noticed it a lot with the cooler weather.

Thanks for all the posts so far.

Regarding my AFR map on and off boost, i did make sure to look at it before i did any autotuning, and it does look like Phil set it up properly to be tuned on boost, with a target AFR of about 11.5:1 during high boost periods.
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Old 11-18-2005, 06:05 PM   #8
RemlapaN
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Ok, so on the way home, I re-uploaded the base map, and did several 4th gear pulls to get the auto-tune doing its thing. I then did a 5th gear pull on an onramp (to compare logs from my first post in this thread).

So, in a nutshell, the results were: I am still getting knock, albeit less, however my EGTs went even higher, this time hitting almost 1000C before I let off the gas. Is the answer to go leaner yet? I was under the impression that for stock turbo cars, about 900C is the max they normally achieve - so what am I doing wrong here, because 1000C cannot be healthy for the car.

BTW, the detonation from the below logs is still audible.

Code:
time	coolant AFR	engine	tps	boost	speed	knock	air	IDC	knock	wastegt cell	cell	pulsew	vacuum timing 
stamp	temp (C)(:1)	(rpm)	(%)	(psi)	(mph)	(V)	(C)	(%)	(V)	(%)	X(n)	Y(n)	(ms)	(mmHg)	(deg)

16372	89	11.5	5550	100.4	15.6	110	0.78	8	91.6	2	62	22	20	17	0	19
16496	89	11.4	5550	100	14.7	111	2.24	8	85.2	2.5	62.8	22	21	18.6	0	18
16620	88	11.4	5600	100	15.6	112	2.02	8	82.8	1.1	62	22	21	17.3	0	19
16744	88	11.5	5600	100.4	14.7	112	1.78	8	84.8	0	63.2	22	20	17	0	20
16868	88	11.5	5600	100.4	14.4	113	2.52	8	84.4	1.5	63.6	22	21	17.6	0	19
17000	88	11.4	5650	100.4	15.6	113	2.28	8	83.6	2.1	62.4	22	20	17	0	18
17112	88	11.5	5700	100.4	14.7	113	2.06	8	87.6	0.6	63.2	22	20	17	0	20
17224	88	11.6	5700	99.6	14.4	114	1.82	8	84.8	1.4	63.2	22	20	16.6	0	19
17336	88	11.5	5750	99.2	14.7	114	1.6	8	85.2	0	64.4	23	21	17.3	0	21
17448	88	11.4	5750	99.2	15.3	115	1.36	8	84.8	0	63.2	23	20	16.6	0	20
17560	88	11.4	5800	99.6	14.7	115	1.18	8	88.4	2.6	63.2	23	20	17	0	19
17672	88	11.5	5800	99.6	14.4	116	0.94	7	86	1.1	63.6	23	20	16.6	0	20
17784	88	11.4	5800	99.6	14.4	117	1.06	8	84.8	1.6	63.6	23	20	16.6	0	20
17896	88	11.5	5850	100	14	117	0.96	8	85.6	2.2	64.4	23	21	17.3	0	19
18000	88	11.5	5850	99.2	14	118	0.92	8	86.4	2.8	64	23	20	17	0	19
18124	88	11.5	5900	100	14.4	117	0.7	8	86	1.3	64	23	20	17	0	20
18248	87	11.4	5950	99.6	14.7	118	0.88	7	86.8	0	64.4	23	20	17	0	21
18372	87	11.4	5950	99.2	14.7	119	1.1	7	86.8	1.3	64	23	20	17	0	20
18496	87	11.5	5950	99.2	14.7	119	0.86	8	85.2	0	64	23	20	17	0	21
18620	87	11.5	6000	99.6	14.4	119	0.98	8	86.4	0.6	64	24	20	17	0	22
18744	87	11.5	6000	99.6	14.4	120	0.86	8	88.8	0	63.6	24	20	17	0	22
18868	87	11.5	6000	99.6	14.4	120	0.64	8	88.4	0	65.2	24	20	17.3	0	22
19000	86	11.4	6050	100	13.7	121	0.72	8	87.2	0	64	24	20	17	0	22
19124	86	11.5	6050	99.2	13.4	121	1.54	8	86.4	3.2	64.8	24	20	17.3	0	19
19248	86	11.5	6050	99.6	13.4	121	1.32	8	88	3.7	65.2	24	20	17	0	19
19372	86	11.5	6100	99.6	13.7	122	1.08	8	90	4.2	64	24	20	17	0	18
19496	85	11.5	6100	97.6	13.7	122	0.86	8	91.2	2.6	64.8	24	20	15.7	0	20
Any thoughts?

EDIT: Lastly, i tried going into the boost-target map, and setting the target boost at 5500-7000rpm to be lower, along the lines of 13psi, however i still hit the same boost it seems - am i missing something?

I have no problems lowering boost above 5500rpm if that means the car will be happier. I fully intend on getting it pro-tuned in the summer, when i have some more mods done, I am just trying to get a safer setup until that time.
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Old 11-18-2005, 06:18 PM   #9
drees
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Well, you've got a couple options:
Richen up a bit from where you are at now (say 1/2 point, ~11:1)
Lower boost further (drop 1-2 PSI wherever you are getting knock)
Lower timing further (drop at least 1-2*+ where knock starts)

Since EGTs are getting up there and timing seems pretty low anyway especially towards the top, dropping timing probably isn't a good idea. Which leaves you with the 1st 2 options. I would do a combination of both... Are you getting knock anywhere else?
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Old 11-18-2005, 07:42 PM   #10
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I totally agree he is running way rich. The question is why is it so rich. I think he's rich because he is off/above his turbo's fuel map. From Phil the map is way rich outside of the efficiency range of the stock turbo. He's boosting to 19 psi.

Boost target map does nothing to lower boost it sets an upper limit. PWM Map 2 is the boost control, if he is using the stock solenoid.

Air temp correction adds fuel and can cause richness. My map was way out of wack, too rich at lower temps.

If he is running autotune while on boost there's no telling what the map looks like now. My AFR target table I think had all of those cells filled as 9 or something like that. Why was he running autotune in the first post? If he did run autotune how did it change his fuel map?

In the latest log the boost looks about right and the AFR if anything are a little lean for a "base" map. If his IDC are to be believed he has now removed more than 15% fuel. That is huge. Phil's map for the stock turbo is not that far off--unless you are out of the efficiency range.
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Old 11-18-2005, 07:57 PM   #11
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My advice is to start with Phil's base map, and tune PWM Map 2 to bring peak boost to around 17 psi. IMHO, boost is the first thing to tune.

What is your peak boost on a 4th gear pull from 2000 RPM up? I'm guessing it's like 21 psi Phil's fuel map is like a cliff (in 3D representation--VERY steep fuel enrichment) after about 18 psi peak boost and tapering from there to around 13 psi.

If there is still knock with Phil's base map and 17 psi, I'd be surprised.

Log for AFR from a "pull" with 17 psi peak in 4th gear. Let's see what that looks like.
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Old 11-19-2005, 08:46 AM   #12
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BBoy,

Thanks for offering advice but you're off base on a few things so please make sure you are correct when giving advice.

There are no portions of the base map that have a target AFR table with a value of 9:1. The richest would be 10.7 above 18 psi.

AutoTuning is absolutely the easiest, fastest, and safest way to tune for a novice. To this day I almost use it on every car I tune as it quickly lets me know how close the base map is. Once in the ball park I'll begin manually tuning.

Base maps have come a very long way since you first installed your Hydra. You were one of the first, so base maps at that time needed some work still

I don't want you to be discouraged from offering advice as I know you are one of the more experienced users, just be careful

RemlapaN,

Do not touch PWM Map 2! This is for the DBW on the STI and is not for adjusting boost. Your boost map is PWM Map 4. Please read the tuning guides on www.elementtuning.com for tips on how to tune this properly.

I think once you downloaded the base map and started over the map looks to be very close. Do not adjust the Air Temp Correction map as its pretty spot on (make sure you still have your MAF plugged in).

At this point your EGT gauge is simply wrong! At 11.5 AFR, 22 degrees of ignition advance, and 14 psi with a stock turbocharger you are no where over 900C. Your car should be able to handle those values without detonating but every car is different and this is why we have programmable engine management. I would drop timing by 3 degrees in all boost areas so you can tune your AFR detonation free. Bring the AFR down to 11:1 and if there is no knock you can start to add the ignition timing back in.

Seriously consider getting your car tuned by a professional that can accurately access detonation otherwise your car may not make it through the winter if you are truly detonating. Iím in Maryland so if youíre not to far give me a call as it will only take me 2 hours to tune this setup.

Good luck!

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 11-19-2005, 02:17 PM   #13
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My apologies.

Phil, you must now send the AFR Target Table filled in with "real" AFR values boost areas. PWM map 4, not 2, that was a big mistake. I was just try to make sense of why his AFR were soooooooo low. I'm also keeping my fingers crossed that he was misfiring at that level of fueling and not detonating.
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Old 11-20-2005, 01:09 AM   #14
RemlapaN
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Thanks phil, and bboy, for your posts - i believe I will give you a call to see if I can schedule a time to get the car tuned by you, since spending a few hundred in tuning is still a lot cheaper than buying pistons if the detonation persists.

In the mean time, I will just avoid hitting full boost above 5000rpm, since that is the only place where I am experiencing issues.
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Old 11-20-2005, 01:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
My apologies.

Phil, you must now send the AFR Target Table filled in with "real" AFR values boost areas. PWM map 4, not 2, that was a big mistake. I was just try to make sense of why his AFR were soooooooo low. I'm also keeping my fingers crossed that he was misfiring at that level of fueling and not detonating.
No harm no foul. I think you'll be very impressed with the Element GT65 base map when your STI is outfitted with this kit. Especially since your map is the lower octane version tuned on your specific fuel.

Yes, the maps are populated with an appropriate target AFR table based on the level of modification. They are still send out with safety margin in mind however.

Thanks,
Phil
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