Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday September 2, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo)

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-19-2005, 09:24 PM   #1
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default What is the VF39 wastegate actuator PSI set at stock from the factory?

I bought a VF39 for use with a completely unrelated car, a Mazda. It will go on a 2.2 engine but I would like to know the factory wastegate setting for the actuator. Do any of you have this available from a Subaru workshop manual that CONFIRMS the stock setting? I don't own a Subaru so please bear with me if this is in the wrong place. I tried searching and didn't come up with an actual answer to answer my question. I'd also like to know what psi you guys are maxing out at on the actuator. My plan is to run 16-20 psi but I'd like to know if the stock setting is lower for a base dyno run. Knowing this will help me determine if I should use the VF39 wastegate actuator or another that I KNOW the correct opening for, such as 8 psi for a baseline run to see how the VF39 reacts with my motor.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 11-19-2005, 09:34 PM   #2
WR^2X
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37617
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2007

Default

I believe it is 8 psi, but someone will correct me if I am wrong.
WR^2X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 01:15 AM   #3
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

That's what mine is too.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 04:17 PM   #4
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Thats what I figured but I wasn't sure. Most actuators regardless of make or model are set somewhere around 8 psi from the factory. It's a good amount without being too much. I just didn't want to use the VF39 actuator and find out it's set for 12-16 psi on the test runs.

Whats the max that you guys are running on these, around 20 psi? And what is the closest compressor map that you have found? Dimension wise, the compressor wheel it is VERY similar to the T3 60 trim.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 04:25 PM   #5
WR^2X
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37617
Join Date: May 2003
Vehicle:
2007

Default

19 psi seems to be about the best you can do within the turbo's efficiency range on the 2.5L, and that might be pushing it. I run 16.5 psi.
WR^2X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 04:59 PM   #6
Davenow
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23676
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: de_dust and Orgrimar
Vehicle:
.

Default

22-24PSI is totally possible with alcholinjection or race gas.
For pump 18.5-19 seems to be the limit
Davenow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2005, 06:37 PM   #7
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

^^^^I'm not necessarily talking about max psi for an engines standpoint, rather max psi for compressor efficiency like WR^2X said. I don't know if any of you have an IHI compressor map but I would like to see it if you do.

Comparing turbine and compressor wheels, the T3 60 Trim has a T3 turbine OF 2.319" or 58.90mm at its major outer diameter and 1.918" or 48.74mm at its exducer. The VF39 turbine is 48mm or 1.889" at its exducer and 60mm or 2.362" at its major diameter.

As far as compressor wheels, the T3 60 trim measures 60.22mm or 2.372" at the compressor wheels major diameter and 46.50mm or 1.83" at its inner diamter/inducer. The Vf39 compressor wheel measures 46.48mm/ 60mm OD. They are both pretty close when it comes to size so it theory should have a SOMEWHAT comparible compressor map. Unless anyone has found a better one?

BTW- I picked up a VF39 for $154
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 07:41 AM   #8
Abe Froman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22309
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern Virginia
Vehicle:
04 STI
05 LGT Wagon

Default

My 04 is actually 10psi.
Abe Froman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 11:19 AM   #9
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Stock or with aftermarket componants? If you've changed the downpipe, cat back exhaust, even the air filter, more than likely you'll see slightly higher boost than the stock setting.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 11:24 AM   #10
shemoves
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 80663
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Glendale, AZ
Vehicle:
2005 STi

Default

something to keep in mind...a lot of people have been seeing boost creep issues when there is a lot of flow post turbo. Your smaller engine may prevent that.

Different question...what system(s) will you be using to control boost?
shemoves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 11:32 AM   #11
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Either a manual ball and spring controller or a Profec B Spec II, I have both.

As far as compressor maps, here is the T3 60 trim:


30 lbs/min= roughly 430 cfm but would be on the 70% efficiency mark and close to 150K turbine speed with a 2.8 Pr.

2.76 Pr is roughly 26 psi and 27 psi gives you 2.83 Pr

Here is the same map but converted to CFM:


Note that the T3 Super60 compressor map is very similar to the 60 trim:


The T3 Super60 the same 60.22mm major with a 48.26 minor, so the Super60 compressor wheel would be closer to the VF39 than the 60 trim would.

Again, if anyone happens to have compressor maps, it would help a great deal. Seems like many people say they have them, or have seen them, but either can't or won't post them. Which is either a lie, or lame.

Last edited by SixSick6; 11-21-2005 at 11:41 AM.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 01:20 PM   #12
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

There's no compressor map of the VF39. I did not get more power after about 18 psi and the turbo never blew more than 13 psi at 7000 RPM. It just tapers because turbo cannot produce what the engine ingests.

My best guess is that the VF39 would be rated at about 25-30 lbs/min, or 340-400 CFM, at a PR of 2.0.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 01:28 PM   #13
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
There's no compressor map of the VF39. I did not get more power after about 18 psi and the turbo never blew more than 13 psi at 7000 RPM. It just tapers because turbo cannot produce what the engine ingests.

My best guess is that the VF39 would be rated at about 25-30 lbs/min, or 340-400 CFM, at a PR of 2.0.
Sure there is, all turbos have compressor maps. IHI just doesn't release much info (for good reason) and anyone who claims to have them is either 1) lying 2) in bed with IHI and afraid to get sued for leaking info.

Not that it's that big of a deal anyways, but you'll probably see the VF maps within a couple years.

Also, the reason the boost tapers off isn't the engines fault rather the wastegate. Wastegates are set to start opening before their maximum threashold to avoid your turbo going boom. It's an accounting thing rather than an engineering thing, but they both go hand in hand. If you swapped your wastegate to one with a higher threashold, you'd have more boost for longer rpm.

My stock stock wastegate starts opening at 8.7 psi and according to the factory workshop manual shouldn't see more than 14 psi. The turbo itself is capable of 18-22 psi and most still get decent results at 16-18 psi. I simply swapped my stock wastegate for one that starts opening at 12 psi. Where I would normally have boost tapering off, I still hold for close to 1000 rpm.

You can also get the same results using springs but these methods are trial and error, and most of the time error. Good judgment comes from experience, and alot of that experience comes from bad judgment.

Last edited by SixSick6; 11-21-2005 at 01:36 PM.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 01:45 PM   #14
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

You are splitting hairs. There is no published VF39 map. Yes one can hold the wastegate shut, but you are not producing any power with that air--it's out of the turbos range of efficiency. Are you interested in making power or making boost?
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 02:06 PM   #15
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
You are splitting hairs.
Sure, but I'm also trying to find out accurate info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
There is no published VF39 map.
Which doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. They aren't made public for good reason and don't come with your user guide from the dealership. But one does exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Yes one can hold the wastegate shut, but you are not producing any power with that air--it's out of the turbos range of efficiency.
According to what map? Believe me I know what you mean. But untill a map exists, visually you can't make any assumptions on where the compressor is efficient or inefficient other than other peoples dynos. Too many mods = too many variables and a compressor map is the only way to get SOMWHAT of an accurate account of when and where the compressor is efficient/inefficient. Touche?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Are you interested in making power or making boost?
Both. Remember I won't be using this on a 2.5 motor. I need more boost to make more power. As is, members of my own forum have made 220+ hp and 290 fpt at a mere 14 psi with this same turbo on a 2.2 motor.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 02:28 PM   #16
bboy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56468
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
04 Improved STI
Dirty White

Default

Based on working on a dyno--raise boost, no more power. Your main concern is the lbs/min rating at 2.0 PR. You will not find any more info on the VF39 than I've given to you.
bboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2005, 10:20 PM   #17
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

You're also forgetting that I'll be using this on a smaller 2.2 motor. I won't get the same results as you guys do with a 2.5 engine therefor I need to find out how much I can push this thing to. I expected 16-20 psi would be the limit but I would also like to plot it on a map as well. Seems to me that all of the theoretical cfm numbers on here as wives tails and nothing more, perpetuated by what the last guy said, and the guy before him. Comparatively the turbine and compressor wheel are close to the T3 Super60 so it should have somewhat the same map. I agree that the CFM is probably somewhere around the low 400's but it would be nice to see it on a map rather than something someone has said because they heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who knows a guy who works at IHI. I call BS on that kinda BS.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005, 07:44 AM   #18
Abe Froman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22309
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern Virginia
Vehicle:
04 STI
05 LGT Wagon

Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixSick6
Stock or with aftermarket componants? If you've changed the downpipe, cat back exhaust, even the air filter, more than likely you'll see slightly higher boost than the stock setting.
I don't agree, how does adding aftermarket components change the amount of force it takes to move the spring on the wastegate? We're talking wastegate boost not solenoid controlled boost.

The wastegate works has a fixed surface area and a fixed spring rate, that means a given amount of pressure will open it, I don't see how changing anything other than the spring itself will effect that, please explain to me.

FYI my DP has the same design as the stock pipe(flat flange and it has a cat in the same location).
Abe Froman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005, 04:52 PM   #19
RainMaker
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 93301
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
06 CGM STI SM#17
Now with alot less verve!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abe Froman
I don't agree.
What do you know? You are the sausage king of Chicago, I suppose?
RainMaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005, 04:52 PM   #20
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Opening the exhaust will allow for the turbine to spool easier due to less restriction/backpressure. A change in filter allows the compressor to breathe easier therfor more efficient.

Case in point, my car has a 8.7 psi wastegate and always worked the same until I changed the filter and turbo back exhaust. I can now get 10 psi with no change to boost controller or wastegate. Just for ****s and giggles, and because I had to pass Ca smog, I changed everything back and was back to the 8.7 psi opening. Swapped it back after the test and voila, back to 10 psi, no more, no less.

Not that changing your exhaust and or air filter will make that much of a DRASTIC difference, buy you'll usually see a fluctuation on 1-2 psi beyond what you used to get.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005, 08:37 PM   #21
Abe Froman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22309
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern Virginia
Vehicle:
04 STI
05 LGT Wagon

Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixSick6
Opening the exhaust will allow for the turbine to spool easier due to less restriction/backpressure. A change in filter allows the compressor to breathe easier therfor more efficient.

Case in point, my car has a 8.7 psi wastegate and always worked the same until I changed the filter and turbo back exhaust. I can now get 10 psi with no change to boost controller or wastegate. Just for ****s and giggles, and because I had to pass Ca smog, I changed everything back and was back to the 8.7 psi opening. Swapped it back after the test and voila, back to 10 psi, no more, no less.

Not that changing your exhaust and or air filter will make that much of a DRASTIC difference, buy you'll usually see a fluctuation on 1-2 psi beyond what you used to get.
The wastegate works by pressure on the diaphram, a given pressure of the area has enough force to over come the spring, plain and simple. I don't disagree the car will spool up faster with those changes but I don't see how that can effect the pressure the wastegate opens at, the spring dictates this pressure, I could hook a VF39 to a 2.0L wrx and it should still open at the same psi, regardless of mods. Mass flow and compressor efficiency have no effect on how much force it takes to open the gate.

How were you getting wastegate pressure to measure it? Routing manifold pressure to the wastegate directly? Did you disconnect the solenoid?
I'm not arguing you're results, just your conclusions. My car had a 10psi gate totally stock and now has the same with TBE, intake, FMIC, and AVC-R

Last edited by Abe Froman; 11-22-2005 at 08:56 PM.
Abe Froman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005, 10:29 PM   #22
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

It doesn't effect the pressure that it opens at, just the timing that it equalizes at. Most if not all wastegates start opening a little lower than the known amount, 1-2 psi earlier than the known amount. The turbine being able to gain momentum faster without restriction and the compressor digesting air easier allows for faster response and better efficiency overall. It isn't necessarily that there is a change in the wastegate psi, but that the turbo is able to supply the boost earlier and more efficiently before the wastegate starts to taper off. More or less just a change in timing before the wastegate gets a chance to think about what psi the turbo is operating at, then it equalizes. Hence the reason that you can get a couple psi difference (1-2psi...not much differnce) before your boost starts tapering off.

Last edited by SixSick6; 11-23-2005 at 05:53 AM.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2005, 10:48 PM   #23
DTECH-WRX
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37042
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: South Florida
Vehicle:
2014 Forester 2.0 XT
Marine Blue Pearl

Default

How can you measure at what psi a wastegate opens? Approximate by looking at a dyno plot vs. log ECU boost curve or is there a "mechanical" way?
DTECH-WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2005, 11:01 PM   #24
SixSick6
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76658
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTECH-WRX
How can you measure at what psi a wastegate opens? Approximate by looking at a dyno plot vs. log ECU boost curve or is there a "mechanical" way?
Some electronic boost controllers allow datalogging, most don't. If you're running any aftermarket A/F dataloggers like the Zeitronix Zt2, you can monitor boost as well. For checking when the actuator starts opening, you only need an air compressor and a regulator that will allow you to work with 1 psi up. When you have a regulator that goes that low it's only a matter of starting the pressure as low as possible and attaching a vacuum hose to the wastegate. Then you just have at it until you visually see what psi it starts opening up at.

This works great if you want to start attaching springs to the wastegate flapper arm to raise the threshold.
SixSick6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2005, 04:05 PM   #25
DTECH-WRX
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37042
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: South Florida
Vehicle:
2014 Forester 2.0 XT
Marine Blue Pearl

Default

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure a lot of us will find this info useful when the time comes!
DTECH-WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB VF39 wastegate actuator Jay9786 Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 0 08-06-2009 05:18 PM
VF39 wastegate actuator Tigris Engine/Power/Exhaust 0 12-11-2008 08:04 PM
vf39 wastegate Actuator ccr9 Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 4 02-23-2008 03:13 PM
What Size Screws Hold Wastegate Actuator Onto VF39??? kyoung05 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 5 05-21-2007 01:40 PM
VF39 Wastegate Actuator - What does it look like, and what size screw hold it on??? kyoung05 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 1 04-25-2007 10:09 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.