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Old 11-19-2005, 09:25 PM   #1
bluesube2000
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03 WRX

Default Advance Utec user Help with Timing. Knocks! Confused on Fuel/Timing Knock.

Ive been getting a lot of knocks... and got rid of some... but there are still a few near 4000-5000rpm in the higher load columns. I was wondering if decreasing my timing is the right thing to do. Before you kind people answer, I would just like to tell a history of what I did:

Ok... I got my lc-1 a while ago. I tuned my car to have 12.5 afr up to 3000rpm. Then from 12.5 afr I went down to 11 afr till 5000rpm... then I added more fuel to approach 10.7~10.6 afr till readline. I tuned my boost to almost perfectly where I wanted it. I would incremenet 35 from 200 to around 485... where in my car (with the abc set to where it is) I got close to 16.8 psi (at 100% load column) for my stage3 setup.

Ok... so here is my problem. Because I know my afr is basically running from 12.5 afr to around 11 afr (NOt lean at all [this is what I think] especially compared to base map ) ... it should be my timing map that is wrong right?

Ive tried tinkering with the timing and I have retarded a lot of the values from the base map of stage3 which utec has given us.
So right now... compared to base stage3 map, Ive decreased like 3-4 on timing for the rpms from 3000 - 4000. And then from 4000 to 6000 Ive decreased 2-3 degrees of timing compared to the base map.

I am running on 91 octane because that is the highest on california. Does this seem right to you guys? Am I doing the right things to get rid of the knock? Ive decreased my timing a lot... more than what I think it should be...

SHould I keep on going... because I know lowering boost and increasing fuel can also get rid of knocks... but from the afrs im getting and the 16.8psi ( .2 psi less than recommended boost for stage3) ... I dont think it is this problem.

Any insight would be helpful!!
-Eric
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Old 11-19-2005, 09:30 PM   #2
ride5000
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12.9 / 105+

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ok, i'm going to take this opportunity to make an example out of you, eric. not because i don't like you, but because it seems i (and other people willing to help, for that matter) have to repeat this fifty thousand times a year:

POST LOGS OF THE PROBLEM
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Old 11-19-2005, 09:37 PM   #3
bluesube2000
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Yea, I was planning to. But utec doesn't have afr values I can show to you because lc-1 is different. I plan to do a quick run tomorrow and post up afr values and timing values... by taking screenshots.

but basically I just wanted to know if anyone in california had to decrease their timing that much. ...

sorry for having you to repeat this 50,000 / year...
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Old 11-19-2005, 10:19 PM   #4
ride5000
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afr wise, i would run 11:1 all the way through the rpms on 91 octane.

from everything i've ever heard, the gas really is crappy and you've got to run richer to compensate.

when you say you've decreased timing, do you mean over the whole map? or just particular load sites?
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Old 11-20-2005, 02:02 AM   #5
bluesube2000
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I guess I could up the afr, but theres no real big turbo spool up around that area, so I thought it might be ok just to run leaner. Basically yea, I decreased the timing over the whole map by a lot. But yea, I'll get actual log by tomororw so u guys can help me out.
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Old 11-20-2005, 06:49 PM   #6
bluesube2000
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3rd Gear Pull

Code:
 4060  -3.2 3.1  27  10    00   15.4 +27.0   43.5 ECU.   +4.4 ECU.   3.3
 4130  -1.8 3.4  42  20    00   rich +17.6   59.7 ECU.   +4.3 322.00 3.7
 4177  +2.9 3.7  57  50    00   rich +14.1   59.5 +18.9  -0.4 374.50 3.7
 4334  +7.6 3.8  77  70    00   rich +14.6   64.8 +14.5  -1.1 434.50 3.7
 4444 +11.5 3.8  98  80    00   rich +14.2   68.9 +14.8  -1.1 480.00 3.8
 4559 +14.5 3.9 100  90    00   rich +13.5   73.0 +13.7  -1.0 480.00 3.8
 4675 +15.9 3.9 100 100    00   rich +13.8   75.3 +15.6  -0.9 480.00 3.9
 4741 +17.2 3.9 100 100    00   rich +15.4   81.3 +16.6  -1.5 480.00 3.9
 4755 +17.2 3.9 101 100    00   rich +15.2   77.5 +17.6  -1.0 480.00 3.9
 4859 +16.8 4.0 100  90    00   rich +13.3   81.5 +18.0  -1.4 480.00 3.9
 4938 +16.8 4.0 100 100    00   rich +14.8   83.1 +18.5  -1.6 480.00 3.9
 5184 +16.6 4.0 100 100    00   rich +19.5   83.2 +18.5  -1.6 480.00 3.9
 5200 +17.0 4.0 100 100    00   rich +20.4   84.5 +18.5  -1.6 480.00 3.9
 5333 +17.4 4.0 100 100    00   rich +20.8   87.1 +18.8  -1.6 480.00 3.9
 5341 +16.8 4.0 100  90    01   rich +20.6   83.8 +11.2  -1.5 480.00 4.0
 5455 +16.4 4.0 100  90    00   rich +21.3   85.3 +11.2  -1.5 380.00 4.0
Then I found out I also had knocks in the lower rpms too...
4th Gear Pull

Code:
 3144 -11.8 2.7  31  10    00   23.7 +27.2   26.1 ECU.   +5.5 292.50 2.9
 3223  -8.5 2.8  71  10    00   rich +22.3   28.4 ECU.   +5.5 413.50 3.1
 3168  -4.9 3.0  92  10    00   rich +16.3   34.3 ECU.   +5.5 480.00 3.2
 3208  -0.2 3.2  94  30    00   rich  +4.8   36.5 +15.1  +1.5 480.00 3.2
 3252  +4.1 3.3  95  50    00   rich  +3.1   43.4 +15.1  +0.0 480.00 3.4
 3274  +7.6 3.5  95  70    00   rich  +0.8   46.8 +13.0  -0.7 480.00 3.4
 3284 +11.0 3.6  95  80    00   rich  +0.6   48.0 +13.0  -0.6 480.00 3.5
 3326 +13.9 3.5  95  90    00   rich  +4.3   49.3 +12.6  -0.5 480.00 3.5
 3429 +15.9 3.5  95 100    00   rich +12.3   49.0 +13.0  -0.5 480.00 3.5
 3472 +17.0 3.5  96 100    00   rich +12.3   48.4 +13.0  -0.5 480.00 3.5
 3486 +17.2 3.5 101 100    00   rich +11.2   51.5 +13.0  -0.5 480.00 3.5
 3531 +17.0 3.5 100  90    00   rich +11.5   52.5 +12.2  -0.5 480.00 3.5
 3565 +16.4 3.6 100  90    00   rich +11.1   52.7 +12.3  -0.5 480.00 3.5
 3615 +15.5 3.6 100  80    00   rich  +9.7   53.2 +12.5  -0.6 480.00 3.6
 3703 +14.9 3.7 100  80    02   rich  +9.3   55.6  +4.5  -0.6 480.00 3.6
 3627 +15.5 3.6  80  90    00   rich  +8.2   54.6  +4.7  -0.5 445.00 3.3
 4011 +11.5 2.3   0  00    00   rich +25.1   42.5 ECU.   +6.0 ECU.   3.2
Fourth Gear Pull

Code:
 3654  +8.6 3.5  39  70    00   rich +11.8   47.2 +13.0  -0.7 312.50 3.4
 3691 +11.5 3.5  35  80    00   12.7 +13.2   46.2 +12.2  -0.6 302.50 3.5
 3762 +12.9 3.5  36  80    00   13.1 +13.6   47.1 +12.1  -0.6 305.00 3.4
 3770 +13.7 3.5  35  80    00   13.3 +13.5   48.2 +12.4  -0.6 302.50 3.5
 3809 +13.5 3.5  29  80    00   12.7 +14.0   46.0 +12.2  -0.6 ECU.   3.4
 3835 +12.9 3.3  27  70    00   rich +18.1   40.5 +13.5  -0.7 ECU.   3.3
 3885 +12.3 3.5  71  60    00   13.1 +17.7   50.7 +16.0  +0.2 413.50 3.5
 3935 +11.7 3.7 100  60    00   rich +11.6   60.7 +16.4  +0.2 480.00 3.7
 4006 +12.1 3.8 100  70    00   rich +10.8   66.2 +14.3  -1.0 480.00 3.7
 4055 +13.3 3.7 100  90    00   rich +11.3   66.0 +13.7  -0.6 480.00 3.7
 4084 +15.1 3.7 100 100    00   rich +11.1   66.6 +13.7  -0.6 480.00 3.7
 4135 +16.1 3.8 100  90    00   rich +11.3   65.9 +13.7  -0.7 480.00 3.8
 4192 +16.8 3.8 100  90    00   rich +11.7   65.8 +13.7  -0.8 480.00 3.7
 4257 +16.6 3.8 101 100    00   rich  +6.6   67.0 +13.7  -0.9 480.00 3.8
 4323 +16.4 3.8 100  90    00   rich  +6.7   69.2 +13.7  -1.0 480.00 3.8
 4262 +17.2 3.8 100 100    02   rich  +7.0   69.2  +5.7  -0.9 480.00 3.8

Fifth Gear Pull

Code:
 2456  +0.2 2.7  41  20    00   rich +17.9   23.4 ECU.   +6.0 318.50 2.9
 2476  +2.1 2.8  92  30    00   rich +15.1   24.6 +18.2  +3.3 480.00 2.9
 2465  +3.5 2.8  95  30    00   rich +16.3   23.9 +18.2  +3.1 480.00 2.9
 2504  +4.9 2.9  96  40    00   rich +15.9   24.5 +18.0  +0.6 480.00 2.9
 2519  +5.9 2.9  96  40    00   12.0 +17.6   23.4 +17.8  +1.0 480.00 2.9
 2489  +6.8 2.9  96  50    00   12.3 +14.7   24.4 +17.8  +0.0 480.00 3.0
 2560  +7.8 3.0  96  50    00   12.8 +14.3   25.5 +17.6  +0.0 480.00 3.0
 2560  +8.4 3.0  96  50    00   12.5 +12.6   25.9 +17.6  +0.0 480.00 3.0
 2606  +9.2 3.0  96  60    00   12.1 +12.3   27.1 +17.2  +0.0 480.00 3.0
 2606  +9.8 3.1  99  60    00   12.6 +12.3   27.6 +17.2  +0.0 480.00 3.0
 2598 +10.6 3.1 100  70    00   12.2 +13.3   27.5 +16.0  -1.3 480.00 3.1
 2651 +11.3 3.1 101  70    00   13.1 +13.7   27.9 +15.8  -1.4 480.00 3.0
 2637 +11.9 3.1 101  70    00   13.5 +14.0   28.3 +15.8  -1.4 480.00 3.1
 2696 +12.5 3.1 101  70    00   13.8 +14.0   28.8 +15.6  -1.4 480.00 3.1
 2705 +12.9 3.1 101  80    00   13.6 +14.0   29.9 +15.4  -1.4 480.00 3.1
 2732 +13.3 3.2 101  80    00   13.4 +12.2   29.9 +15.2  -1.4 480.00 3.1
 2734 +13.9 3.2 101  80    00   13.3 +11.9   31.4 +15.0  -0.7 480.00 3.1
 2784 +14.3 3.2 101  80    00   13.1 +10.9   32.4 +15.0  -1.5 480.00 3.2
 2727 +14.9 3.3 101  90    00   13.1  +8.7   32.2 +14.8  -1.4 480.00 3.2
 2822 +14.9 3.2 101  90    00   12.7  +8.7   33.9 +14.4  -1.2 480.00 3.2
 2815 +15.1 3.3 101  90    03   13.1  +7.0   34.0  +6.8  -1.4 480.00 3.2
 2766 +14.5 2.9   0  00    00   12.2 +12.1    6.8 ECU.   +6.0 ECU.   3.5
 2841 +10.0 3.0   0  00    00   rich +12.9   26.4 ECU.   +6.0 ECU.   2.7
Well Ive been decreasing timing a lot (compared to the stage3 basemap) to make most of the knocks go away. And my afr ratio is where I'd like it to be near (12.5 from 0 ~ 3000ish and then 11afr till 5000ish and then 10.6-10.7 near redline)

Running on 91 octane ... ****ty california gas.

Should I keep on retarding timing? or is there something else wrong...

i'll get a afr reading by tomororw to show u guys.

Performance Mods:
Turbo XS TMIC
RSR TurboBack
Helix uppipe
UTEC
...
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Old 11-20-2005, 10:05 PM   #7
crystalhelix
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yep we need some AFR's to try to help, or narrow down the problem

maybe crap gas, someting else...who knows.
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Old 11-20-2005, 10:31 PM   #8
Gethin
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big jump in timing when pushing a lot of boost

18 jumping to 11 @ 16.8 psi
12 jumping to 4 @ 14.9 psi
13 jumping to 5 @ 17.2 psi
14 jumping to 6 @ 15.1 psi

try and match what the stock ECU wants to run for timing, at least get close to it anyway, big swings and you will get knock - your logs are showing quite a big difference with what the ECU wants run, and what your map is telling it to run

try and smooth that out in the corresponding load zones also try lowering your value of 480 to maybe 400 or 450 to run a little lest boost?

IMHO
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Old 11-21-2005, 02:08 AM   #9
bluesube2000
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isn't the big jump in timing due to the utec knock protection... like when knock is detected utec automatically retards timing to make sure less detonation?

... but I guess I will just change the timing to even lower than how low it was from how I set it compared to the base map (confusing sentence) ... damn cali gas sucks

Last edited by bluesube2000; 11-21-2005 at 02:17 AM.
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