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Old 11-23-2005, 01:43 PM   #26
Julio
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bboy:

I agree to a certain point. Though my car is not fully tuned (ask Phil) and I am also two steps colder in a hotter climate than Fl, and my car runs 422whp on pump gas at 20psi everysingle day. No fouling, etc

I don't think the plugs has anything to do with his problem. I may be wrong, but so far I don't think it has anything to do with the plugs.
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Old 11-23-2005, 03:08 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
The hotter the burn the higher the combustion temperatures the higher the HP will be. Remember heat is energy and the less heat you transfer from the combustion process into the spark plugs, heads, and piston the greater the energy available to create power. I believe n2xlr8n was alluding to something along these lines.

Exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Now, the million dollar question is did you reduce power with the colder spark plugs and therefore engine noise was reduced or did you reduce some low level detonation with a colder spark plug due to controlling the temperature of the insulator?

Ditto.

S.
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Old 11-23-2005, 03:23 PM   #28
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hehe Who bets on the latter?
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Old 11-23-2005, 07:36 PM   #29
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If it was low-level det, it would have gone away with a tank of GT100 and 13psi in my opinion. It did not.
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Old 11-23-2005, 08:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
If it was low-level det, it would have gone away with a tank of GT100 and 13psi in my opinion. It did not.
Piece of mind is worth so much and that's why insurance companies exist and take all of our hard earned $

It's funny because with the Hydra there really are no secrets. You can view every last detail whether that be good one day or bad the next. You have all the means necessary to make it run great or horrible. Tuning cars is never black and white. Each car even with the same modification can be significantly different. What works for one personís car may not work for another. To that I say, do what works on your car regardless of what everyone else says should work

I'm just happy you have the means to make your combination of parts work. Hopefully now you can go at least a couple of days without being a slave to your data logger

Phil
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Old 11-25-2005, 07:54 AM   #31
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Yes. Phil has given me many tips to help me tune some local cars. Two of these are almost identical WRXs. The maps are totally off and way different. One likes to run lean, the other one likes to run pig rich.

Hey.. even in my personal car.. Phil has tuned cars with similar modifications, and he noticed my car doesn't like to run lean at all. (if you can call 11.2 lean)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
Piece of mind is worth so much and that's why insurance companies exist and take all of our hard earned $

It's funny because with the Hydra there really are no secrets. You can view every last detail whether that be good one day or bad the next. You have all the means necessary to make it run great or horrible. Tuning cars is never black and white. Each car even with the same modification can be significantly different. What works for one personís car may not work for another. To that I say, do what works on your car regardless of what everyone else says should work

I'm just happy you have the means to make your combination of parts work. Hopefully now you can go at least a couple of days without being a slave to your data logger

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 11-25-2005, 08:57 AM   #32
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jeff, could it be that during the plug swap you tightened/changed something else inadvertanly?

would you be willing to go back to the "noisy" plugs again?

ken
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Old 11-28-2005, 12:53 PM   #33
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I'm sorry i may have missed this but what was the plug gaps on both plugs?

Louis
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Old 11-28-2005, 05:47 PM   #34
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ken: I don't believe so. I didn't touch anything else at all and always torque my plugs and coils with a torque wrench.

S2BG: .295mm
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Old 11-28-2005, 07:40 PM   #35
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I too run the heat range 8 plugs... and have on and off for a couple of years. I run them because I can get an couple of extra degrees of timing out of them... why would I want to do that? Because my EGTs are 1750 on a 4th gear pull, 1700 on a 3rd, and 1650 on a 2nd, and I want as much timing as I can to try to reduce EGTs!

I think what you're seeing is a loss of power moving to the heatrange 8 plugs. I think if you put those 1-2 degrees of timing in (that I put in when I run these plugs) you'd see exactly the same amount of noise (knock). The only way to tell is to run it on the dyno, and see if you've lost some power... I'm betting you have.

My timing is pretty advanced, considering I'm running a US STi 2.5L block with V7 STi heads (I've heard 9:1, I've heard 9.2:1, pick one). My midrange is something that Phil used to tease me about regularly - 18 degrees ramping up to 24 degrees. Try that on 92 octane at 22psi (with water injection) with that kind of compression... it ain't gonna happen with heatrange 6 plugs.

As a side note - I use a knocklink to help me set my knock limits. If I see any more than the 1st green light, or if I see a flicker, thats knock. It seems to work pretty well in setting the limits, you see amber and you check your logs for a spike outside of the allowable norm.
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Old 11-28-2005, 10:47 PM   #36
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Darth, so did running -8 plugs and more timing actually reduce EGTs compared to running -7 plugs? It seems the end result would be close to the same, the difference being that with the -8 plugs you end up with combustion starting a bit sooner but ramps up slower?
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Old 11-28-2005, 11:43 PM   #37
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Yes, but not by much. 50 degrees at most, I used to see an ocasional 1800 degree pull.

(funny thing, I've been abusing this stock STi block for almost two years now, compression is still perfect)
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Old 11-29-2005, 12:56 AM   #38
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More hybrid motors are coming to attention has having sensitive knock issues. I wonder if its instrumentation or if there is just something quirky about the motor that makes it so sensitive. Also makes you wonder if everyone out there just turned down the knock sensitivity so much that they are in danger. Jblaine, do you have a dyno available? I guess the real truth is if there is a dip in torque where it "knocks".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
Yes, but not by much. 50 degrees at most, I used to see an ocasional 1800 degree pull.

(funny thing, I've been abusing this stock STi block for almost two years now, compression is still perfect)
I don't want a tangent...but there is a difference between running an engine hard and abusing it. I'd say you run it hard whereas an abusive tune will destroy it. 1800* EGTs don't blow a motor right away much in the same way that tiny knock does, huge det and constant high EGTs do.
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
I've got a version 8 EJ207 shortblock + WRX heads
..........................
Quirt at Crawford Performance has told ebeck several times that it is roughly 9:1. I have not convinced myself firsthand of this yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
I'm running a US STi 2.5L block with V7 STi heads (I've heard 9:1, I've heard 9.2:1, pick one).


The above chart was made by Jeff Spoonagle (sp). With that (and many threads where we determined the CR) in mind, the 257+207 heads in ~8.7:1 and the 207+WRX heads around 8.1:1; the latter guestimated using the chart. I haven't done the calc for it, but the WRX chamber is bigger than the spec C which has a 8.17:1 CR, so it will be slightly lower than that.

HTH some.

Last edited by TypeC; 11-30-2005 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 11-30-2005, 11:10 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
Yes, but not by much. 50 degrees at most, I used to see an ocasional 1800 degree pull.

(funny thing, I've been abusing this stock STi block for almost two years now, compression is still perfect)
I was able to pull the plugs on the WRX after Time Attack 05 and I couldnít see any signs of an over heated insulator. The plugs were a bit sooty due to being move around so much on the transport so much so I couldnít examine them perfectly. Iím running an STI long block with CP pistons with NGK PLFR6A-11. In my opinion these are the best plugs by far for the STI.

DarthChicken used to worry and then we started joking about how high our egts were. It was like a competition but after so many hours of what we thought were extremely high egts but without any significant failures and no resolution is sight weíve become comfortable with them. I say no major failures but that heat has to go somewhere which is into your exhaust components which will bleed lots of heat into the engine bay so itís important to wrap the exhaust components and shield wires in close proximity.

Watch this video paying close attention to the middle EGT gauge. http://www.elementtuning.com/Time At...rySheehan2.wmv

When the light is illuminated egts are in excess of 850C and peaked out around 970C (1780F). Keep in mind this video only represents ľ to 1/3 of the time the car was on the track for this timed session.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 11-30-2005, 11:49 AM   #41
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You need to change your warning light Phil, I have mine set at 1800 degrees instead of 1600

No kidding on the shielding though, especially the turned turbo guys... the power steering line runs right by the turbine housing on my setup, I've got a heatshield on my turbo, plus I put some thermal wrap on the line itself. Also you have to watch the boost lines, they run pretty close to the turbine as well (with the external gates being where they are).

And you guys are sliding ALL over the place on that video, thats awesome!
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Old 11-30-2005, 11:59 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdvma
More hybrid motors are coming to attention has having sensitive knock issues. I wonder if its instrumentation or if there is just something quirky about the motor that makes it so sensitive. Also makes you wonder if everyone out there just turned down the knock sensitivity so much that they are in danger. Jblaine, do you have a dyno available? I guess the real truth is if there is a dip in torque where it "knocks"
I have not put the new setup on a dyno yet. I have spent the last 5 months tuning my fuel and boost maps good, using timing I believe to be conservative and safe (see GT100 runs with no knock voltage difference, etc).

The bajillion dollar question is, what is conservative timing for my set up? Which leads to "What IS my static compression ratio?" I have been all through Sponaugle's threads, and most of them you will find with a last post by me which has gone unanswered.

The thing to remember here is that "EJ207" means nothing without specifying version 7 or version 8 when discussing static CR. The piston tops are entirely different. The version 8 has no raised center block to it and no real dish to speak of (very minimal).



The center of the piston has a flat-topped "button" which tapers down very minimally. As you radially approach the outer edge of the piston, the surface raises very minimally back up. We're talking about a "dish" of about 1mm with a button in the center. I have yet to see anyone with CC information on this piston top, and am therefore left to accept Quirt Crawford's word (via his discussion with user ebeck).
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Old 11-30-2005, 01:01 PM   #43
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I think what your asking for is impossible for any of us to determine from this side of the monitor. You have custom pistons, resulting in a different static CR, and are asking for "what is standard".

Anything anybody says is going to be opinion, and not much else. Get it to the dyno, and find out what is conservative - or just keep pushing until you knock with a knocklink and back off a little, your choice
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Old 11-30-2005, 01:14 PM   #44
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Understood. It really was meant as a rhetorical question (to myself). Poor delivery.

I'll have to cave and build some sort of real detcan setup and hit the dyno.

I do have to say though... if I had a way to cancel all TGV CELs, I'd have taken the car to TopSpeed way up in Atlanta by now and happily cruised away with an EcuTek reflash. As it is, I have a rough reflashed stock ECU sitting on my table that barfs all over TGV CELs... ... and a $1500 + $280gas + $220brakepads + 80hrs-tuning Hydra in my car.

Getting pretty tired of all this, but it's nobody's fault but mine. Frustration is almost always the result of facing something one's not properly competent with.
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Old 11-30-2005, 08:49 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
You need to change your warning light Phil, I have mine set at 1800 degrees instead of 1600

No kidding on the shielding though, especially the turned turbo guys... the power steering line runs right by the turbine housing on my setup, I've got a heatshield on my turbo, plus I put some thermal wrap on the line itself. Also you have to watch the boost lines, they run pretty close to the turbine as well (with the external gates being where they are).

And you guys are sliding ALL over the place on that video, thats awesome!
No all those red lights are good, it means it's making power

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 12-01-2005, 11:51 AM   #46
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jblaine, what knock sensor are you using?
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:10 PM   #47
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Stock.
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:16 PM   #48
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Stock JDM v8 or stock USDM WRX?

If it's stock USDM WRX, what is the build date on your car?
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:18 PM   #49
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Stock 2002 USDM WRX knock sensor. Remind me again where I can find the build date?
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:29 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine
Stock 2002 USDM WRX knock sensor. Remind me again where I can find the build date?
Metal plate on the drivers side door jam.

TMS
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