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Old 11-21-2005, 10:31 PM   #1
Aries
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Impreza WRX STi Ultimate STI brake kit.

This is a question, for the brake gurus and racing oriented people.

If you had 10k for brakes, and your soul porpuse is to race, what would you buy.

Would you go with a regular BBK, from Stop Tech or Brembo?

What rotors would you use?

Six piston, 4 piston, two piston?

Monoblock or two piece caliper?

What pedals?

What master cylinder?

Etc..

please, don't move this to the brake forum. people there, don't know nothing about heavy duty racing brakes. at least mos of them don't. and there arent threads like this. since they only talk about street brakes.
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Old 11-21-2005, 11:32 PM   #2
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Rules of the class are going to dictate what you can do with brakes... SCCA Club Racing? World Challenge? Time Attack?
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Old 11-21-2005, 11:40 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01
Rules of the class are going to dictate what you can do with brakes... SCCA Club Racing? World Challenge? Time Attack?
World Challenge-GT
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Old 11-21-2005, 11:59 PM   #4
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AP racing 6-pot front 4-pot rear, isn't that like what nascar or some shizzle uses?
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:12 AM   #5
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I would run monoblocks...6pots front and 4pots rear...all on floating rotors
master cylinder(s) would be designed off of brake calculations...as would pedal ratio...being that the calipers and rotors will be the biggest fixed point for choice
if you set a fixed desired (realistic) rate of decelleration you can calculate all of this easily...if you want to find out what you max is/could actually be you will need to know coefficients of friction between tire and road, and dive underbraking....so spring rates and any suspension geometry affecting dive, as well as weights front rear and CG location...

oh and AP is the shiznit, bu is $$$$$

I just got done doing all of this myself so if you need help I can help you out....if you want a plug and play pre-designed kit, the I won't be too much help being I know little about what's available for the STi.
I also have some excel spreadsheets for calculating brake force...
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:27 AM   #6
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I'd call AP and see if they have a WRC tarmac setup that fits on stock hubs...
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:54 AM   #7
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Guys in World Challenge GT are winning on Stoptech front and rears. Stoptech won the World Challenge TC championship.

More money won't necessarily win you races.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:00 AM   #8
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+ 12345 to Stoptech.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:12 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarySheehan
Guys in World Challenge GT are winning on Stoptech front and rears. Stoptech won the World Challenge TC championship.

More money won't necessarily win you races.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com
Gary,

Is there much difference between, the 6 piston Brembo or Alcon mono and the 4 piston Stop-techs? I am obviously talking about performance. Also, what rotors? I know that there is allot more than just calipers, to make a car stop, and more important, keep stoping for the duration of the race.

What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? What cylinders, etc?

How much would a complete stop-tech kit, incluiding pedals, cylinders etc go for?
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:27 AM   #10
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http://www.alcon.co.uk/

End of discussion.

Now what REALLY are your goals?
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:30 AM   #11
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I forgot about stoptechs...there kits look really good and come with floating rotors...

also forgot about alcon
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:20 AM   #12
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well, you always have these:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=monobloc

but why not do something a little more fancy. Say, watercooling?
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XT6Wagon
I'd call AP and see if they have a WRC tarmac setup that fits on stock hubs...
lol with water cooled front calipers In other news Subaru/Prodrive didn't use Alcon brakes this year.

http://www.engineering-uk.co.uk/eng_...03899&_start=1

Anybody know what they moved to?

Last edited by silentbob343; 11-22-2005 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:30 AM   #14
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Aries, I'd call stoptech and find out what specificly they advise for your application.

Personaly I am not real hot on thier ideas for street brakes. The actual reduction of front braking force compared to the stock LGT brakes isn't a happy thing. I'm sure that making the braking bias slightly more rearward is a good idea to keep most cars happy with upgraded front brakes, but man does it blow when you are trying to stop from speed. So... its a impressive piece for improving lap times from a night and day reduction in fade and increased duriblity.... But for one or two stops a Stock LGT would outstop a LGT with stoptechs (assuming good tires, like RE-070's). I've done other upgrades to other cars that increased the front bias of the brakes when done as a front brake only deal. IE move the same caliper an extra 1" out with a larger rotor. 2 pot cast iron "junk" and still the fastest decelerating car I have been in from 130 down...

I'd upgrade the STi's brembos for the sole reason of ditching some of that massive unsprung wieght that they have.
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Old 11-22-2005, 10:59 AM   #15
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also this company makes a good 6 pot
www.twrracing.com
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries
If you had 10k for brakes, and your soul porpuse is to race, what would you buy.
Which car model in WCGT?

For instance, if it is an STi, I would put DS3000 pads on and a new set of tires and spend 9k on track time to improve my braking skills. The result would be far better than any 10k brake kit and also would be something that provided a permanent benefit.

WRX - then I would go with something off the shelf that has been shown to be competitive in pro racing from a place that has a clue about what the dynamics of braking are. Never used them but stop-tech comes to mind. And then take 7k on track time to improve my braking skills.

LGT don't know what brakes they have but you get the idea of where I think the money is best spent.

Braking is the skill that takes the longest to learn well for a driver - money spent on the driver's skill would pay a lot of dividends.
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboICE
Which car model in WCGT?

For instance, if it is an STi, I would put DS3000 pads on and a new set of tires and spend 9k on track time to improve my braking skills. The result would be far better than any 10k brake kit and also would be something that provided a permanent benefit.

WRX - then I would go with something off the shelf that has been shown to be competitive in pro racing from a place that has a clue about what the dynamics of braking are. Never used them but stop-tech comes to mind. And then take 7k on track time to improve my braking skills.

LGT don't know what brakes they have but you get the idea of where I think the money is best spent.

Braking is the skill that takes the longest to learn well for a driver - money spent on the driver's skill would pay a lot of dividends.
I understand what you say. But our car, will have over 450whp. Our straights are 1/3 mile long. Stock brembos, just don't cut it. They have failed us in the past. And that was with 315 to the wheels. Know its 450 to the wheels. Plus we also have endurance races. We want to make an optimum brake kit. There will be two drivers, one is experienced, the other one has some, but not as much as our senior driver.

We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.

The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:33 PM   #18
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Well you did what would we buy - not what you should buy!

With those types of resources I would expect a team to have access to better information than most of us could provide.

Honestly - at the level of competition you are talking about I doubt this particular forum is the place to come to. With the exception of a couple people, most have not done anything more on tarmac than sprint races in club classing that have low levels of preparation permitted.

To start with HP has little to do with your issue unless you have big gearing changes. The need to pull the car down from 160mph to 50mph is the same no matter how much power is made. Highest speed reduction needed, car weight, tire traction and driver skill have much more to do with it.

Never having run the STi competitively, but having had an '04 on Watkins Glen several times including for an hour straight going from the top of sixth gear into bus stop on street tires - I can see where the OEM brakes would not be suited to the competition level you talking about. But at the same time I don't know that anyone on this board really would have an answer. I haven't seen any WRX or STi MC swaps for instance by anyone.

I think I would look to what they are using in JGTC.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:00 PM   #19
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subscribed
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantsam
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Use the thread tools link at the top ^
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:42 PM   #21
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=monoblock
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLEMON
Would the Tilton 3 piece floor-mounted pedals work?
I think that the STASIS WC-TC Audi has them. Not 100% sure though.
Are you the same person that posted that thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries
What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box?
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XT6Wagon
Aries, I'd call stoptech and find out what specificly they advise for your application.

Personaly I am not real hot on thier ideas for street brakes. The actual reduction of front braking force compared to the stock LGT brakes isn't a happy thing. I'm sure that making the braking bias slightly more rearward is a good idea to keep most cars happy with upgraded front brakes, but man does it blow when you are trying to stop from speed. So... its a impressive piece for improving lap times from a night and day reduction in fade and increased duriblity.... But for one or two stops a Stock LGT would outstop a LGT with stoptechs (assuming good tires, like RE-070's). I've done other upgrades to other cars that increased the front bias of the brakes when done as a front brake only deal. IE move the same caliper an extra 1" out with a larger rotor. 2 pot cast iron "junk" and still the fastest decelerating car I have been in from 130 down...

I'd upgrade the STi's brembos for the sole reason of ditching some of that massive unsprung wieght that they have.
XT6Wagon,

What you are describing is a function of pads, not of bias. The brake pads you are using must take a stop or two to warm up properly to get into their operating range. What pads are you using?

The physical proportioning of the bias is not really dynamic as you describe. It will perform the same for one or two stops or repeated braking events on the track. You just need to select the pad compound that best suits your needs. This goes for every braking system, not Stoptech alone.

Gary
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries
Gary,

Is there much difference between, the 6 piston Brembo or Alcon mono and the 4 piston Stop-techs? I am obviously talking about performance. Also, what rotors? I know that there is allot more than just calipers, to make a car stop, and more important, keep stoping for the duration of the race.

What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? What cylinders, etc?

How much would a complete stop-tech kit, incluiding pedals, cylinders etc go for?
The only reason to go with a 6 piston caliper is for longer pad life. If you do not use up a set of pads in a race (or race weekend, or whatever parameter you want to set), then there is no reason to go with the bigger 6 piston caliper. Remember that it is extra unsprung weight that you need to carry around.

I've read that some of the monoblocks are actually more flexy than the StopTechs, so be aware.

Regarding pedal boxes, talk to Steve Ruiz, Stoptech's Director of Engineering. He's seen them both in action and will be able to tell you a preference bases soley on engineering merit.

Discuss the whole project with Steve and I think he will guide you well. He is a racing engineer and understands exactly what is involved.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries
I understand what you say. But our car, will have over 450whp. Our straights are 1/3 mile long. Stock brembos, just don't cut it. They have failed us in the past. And that was with 315 to the wheels. Know its 450 to the wheels. Plus we also have endurance races. We want to make an optimum brake kit. There will be two drivers, one is experienced, the other one has some, but not as much as our senior driver.

We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.

The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.
Aries,

Stoptech have won races on Lou Gillotti's WCGT Vette. The Aerorotor has lasted the entire 24 Hours of Daytona on Daytona Prototypes. These brakes work well on high HP, high speed applications.

However, you MUST run ducts to any brake system that's being raced. Do you have ducting, or will you have ducting? Without ducting, pretty much every braking system will underperform.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:45 PM   #25
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Yes, we have 3 inch ducts. Although, they don't seem to be working or are not positioned well.

Were can I contact Mr.Ruiz?
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