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Old 12-03-2005, 08:19 PM   #1
nxwrxfx
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Default Help needed for a 6-Point Harness Installation!

Hey guys,
So I just got back from the PRI show today in Orlando with brand new Stand21 6-Point harnesses and I need some advice for proper installation.

First, some basic information:

1) I have a 2002 Subaru WRX
2) I have the stock seats in right now, but in the next few weeks I'll be getting a pair of Recaro Speeds
3) I do have a Speedware harness bar installed
4) No I don't have a roll cage yet, but I am considering getting a bolt-in one later this year. I just have to find one that will hopefully work with the rear seats being in, and also it has to go around the harness bar that's already installed.
In the meantime I know the risks associated with running a harness bar with no roll cage, and if you would, please don't remind me of them! I just want to know how to safely install these harnesses for right now. Thanks!

Now for some help:

1) EDIT: Well, I've answered 2 of my 3 questions already. Figured out the shoulder belts wrap around the harness bar for proper angled installation. Wasn't sure how to install these to the rear upper seatbelt mounts if they had to pass through the harness bar first. Figured they would point down towards the floor and I know you aren't supposed to have the shoulder belts that low because of the risk of spinal compression in a lateral impacted crash.
Moving on!

2) Basically, do the lap belts bolt onto the bottom rear left & right on the seat mount? I don't think the supplied eyebolts are long enough to pass through the Speedware harness bar mount where the stock seatbelt is. And finding metric eyebolts with a long enough shank to do this is proving less than amusing.

I think it will fit better if I just swap the stock seat rail bolts out for eyebolts. And then do I use eyebolts on the chassis somewhere for the other subbelts?
I want to bolt the subbelts to the front left & right seat rail mounts, but I'm unsure if this will be safe enough as I've read that subbelts need to drop directly down to the floor.

I really would rather not drill holes in my car if I can avoid it, but I don't want to render the subbelts inactive by installing them incorrectly.

Anyway, thanks in advance for anyone that can help me. Hopefully I can get these installed soon. I've already done a few major suspension upgrades and I really hope these things will keep me and my passenger planted in our seats for once!
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Last edited by nxwrxfx; 12-05-2005 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:14 AM   #2
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Bump for a new day and new info!
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:59 AM   #3
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mouse + search + click = all the info you need on this topic.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:41 AM   #4
nxwrxfx
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Yeah I've tried searching... both here on NASIOC and on ScoobyMods. I haven't found anything specific to 6-point harnesses yet. And the information that I've found otherwise seems to be mostly based on opinions and/or what people have heard. I need someone who has actually installed 6-point harnesses or knows someone who has installed them in their Suby.

I have a feeling that I'm probably on my own here since the majority of people seen to stick with 4-point Rallyes or GC locks... But I could be wrong!
And hopefully I am so I can get a little bit more information to support my installation decisions.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:44 AM   #5
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Have you ruled out the possibility of getting a shop to do it?

What brackets are you going to use for your seats? If you are going to have custom ones made, you could just have the shop do the harnesses as well.

I defer to the experts for stuff like this personally

john
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:03 PM   #6
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Run the anti-sub straps to the rear seat mounts (or drill holes in the floor and put in backing plates). You can run them through the gap between the seat base and back. You end up sitting on them.

I haven't done this in a Subaru specifically, but it is the 2nd best way compared to running them straight down through the seat. Running them to the front seat mount points is useless - they would go slack in a frontal collision with that setup. Sadly, most people do this.

A great page for harness setup info: http://www.gforce.com/pdf/harnessinstall.pdf
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:40 PM   #7
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buttdyno - I tend to do things myself whenever possible. I'm still a college student for one which means I have very little cash for professional installation left over. This is quite frustrating from time to time because I have to spend so much time researching a project instead of just paying someone else to do it quickly. But I don't mind installing things myself because It helps me learn how to deal with any potential problems relating to my car so that I can fix them myself when needed. But when things go over my head I definitely revert back to the aid of professionals!
Example: If I ever blew a head gasket I wouldn't have a clue about how to safely remove my engine to fix it correctly and quickly!
But seats & harnesses I'm sure I can figure it out myself with the proper guidance from fellow Suby enthusiasts!

I had talked to a few WRC shops this past weekend at the PRI show about mounting racing harnesses, but the majority of them stated that they use full roll cages welded to the chassis and drill holes through with mounting plates underneath the chassis.
Since this is still my daily driver for now I am hesitant to drill holes where water & junk could potentially seep in and cause rust to form.
Also, the seat brackets I'm getting are Recaro WRX specific brackets.

Finally: YES! That's exactly the kind of information that I needed, thanks corey! And if sitting on top of the subbelts means that they will function correctly then that is worth the annoyance IMHO!
Like I said, my main goal is to install these harnesses correctly for functionality rather than just throwing them in there for "looks".

I will read up on that website after lecture and will get back to you all in a few days after I get the custom eyebolts that I need to finish up the installation. It turns out that no one makes M10x1.25 eyebolts so I have to send the 6 out of 8 eyebolts that I received with my harnesses out to a racing shop to have them re-milled and it's going to take a few days. I wonder why Subaru decided to go with 2 different sizes of bolts to bolt the seat rails down with? Seems strange to me but I'm sure there is a reason in there somewhere...

Anyway, please continue to post any more information if you have it though, I'm hear to listen & learn!

Last edited by nxwrxfx; 12-05-2005 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:10 PM   #8
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Okay, I think I have this all figured out and I just mailed the eyebolts to be re-milled today, so hopefully I can finish the installation by Wednesday!

I've decided to mount the lap belts and rear sub-belts to the rear seat mounts. I think that they should be able to handle the extra force. I figure if they can keep a seat mounted in during a crash, then the extra belts mounted at these points will more than likely anchor the seat to the chassis via my added weight held in by the harnesses. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!
THanks!
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:43 AM   #9
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I'd try to mount the lap belts to the stock lapbelt mounts if at all possible. You know those points were designed for the large loads a lapbelt sees, it's not certain that a seat mount is designed for the same loads. After all, the body comes off the seat in a frontal impact and slides laterally in a side impact. The rear seat mounting points are never really loaded vertically or in the forward direction and _may_ not be designed to cope with those loads.

One other thing to consider is the mounting of straps. It sounds like you're using eyebolts, but if you were using bolt-in hardware then the seat mounting bolts are at the wrong angle to properly align the mounting plates with the load.

For autocross-type speeds, using the seat mounts is more than enough.
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Old 12-06-2005, 09:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey_dyck
I'd try to mount the lap belts to the stock lapbelt mounts if at all possible. You know those points were designed for the large loads a lapbelt sees, it's not certain that a seat mount is designed for the same loads. After all, the body comes off the seat in a frontal impact and slides laterally in a side impact. The rear seat mounting points are never really loaded vertically or in the forward direction and _may_ not be designed to cope with those loads.
The inboard seatbelt mount (latch) is on the seat bracket. I'd say the seat mounts were designed to hold.
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:28 PM   #11
nxwrxfx
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LOL. Yeah thanks guys! I having those eyebolts re-milled at a shop back home in Indy today, and hopefully in a few days I'll get them back so I can finish the installation!
About using the seat rail mounts vs. the factory seat belt mounts though: regardless I worry that once I put the Recaro seat rails in & the Recaro seats that the stock seatbelt clip will be eliminated. I don't know if I'm right about this or not, but I figured it couldn't hurt to think of alternatives to installing if this problem turns out to be true. Hopefully everything works out okay.

Anyway, I cannot wait to install these fully!
My girlfriend and I did a mock test-fit in my parking lot the other day and I can't wait to see how well they hold.
I know that I'm not the only one getting sick of getting tossed around when I drop the back end out... safely and controlled mind you!
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:04 PM   #12
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Just got news from the re-milling shop... problems have arisen...
It turns out that I can't re-mill the included eyebolts to M10x1.25 because it would weaken them structually.
Also, it seems next-to-impossible to find eyebolts that are M10x1.25 with a ~1inch shank here in the United States (or even the UK for this matter!)
So, I've decided to go ahead and bore out the seat bracket holes to 7/16's so that all four match per side, instead of only one on each side being 7/16's.
It seems really strange that Subaru made it this way, but oh well.
So I now have to wait a week or so to get a 1/2HP drill, dual-stage drill bit (M10x1.25 to 7/16's) & centering piece, and some type of drill bit stop so I don't drill through my car and into my gas/brake lines!
(Sigh)
And to think this whole process has come to a grinding halt just because no one makes M10x1.25 eyebolts!

The only benefit that I see here is the fact that my new seats might arrive at about the same time that I get all of the tools needed to re-drill the holes.
If this is true, then I'll be able to install everything at once instead of having to partially uninstall things later on.

Anyway, if you guys have any other advice and/or want to see pictures of the completed installation just let me know!

-Nick
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Old 12-07-2005, 01:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey_dyck
Run the anti-sub straps to the rear seat mounts (or drill holes in the floor and put in backing plates). You can run them through the gap between the seat base and back. You end up sitting on them.
youre going to end up seriously damaging the old family jewels in a frontal crash if you run the sub belt like this. if you cant run it through a proper sub belt guide in the seat (and of course the stock seat doesnt have one) then it may be better to just wait until you get the aftermarket seat to install the harness.

ernie
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Old 12-07-2005, 05:34 PM   #14
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True true... But injury of the family jewels vs. a worse injury due to non-functioning belts... which is the lesser of two evils?
But I totally understand what you mean. As it turns out, the Recaros will probably arrive just as I get the parts needed to finish, so chances are I won't have to worry about the sub-belt problem, luckily!
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Old 12-07-2005, 07:13 PM   #15
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Have you called/ emailed/ looked at the website of the manufacturer, they whould give you all the info you need.
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nxwrxfx
True true... But injury of the family jewels vs. a worse injury due to non-functioning belts... which is the lesser of two evils?
Honestly, you stand to suffer much worse injury running improperly installed harnesses than the stock restraint system. As an example, one of our fellow NASIOC members was nearly killed when running improperly adjusted harnesses. Although I cannot confirm this, I have heard of an individual dying from an improperly installed sub belt when the belt severed a major artery in his leg after an impact. Bottom line, harnesses are serious stuff and I would reccomend sticking with stock until those recaros go in

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Old 12-07-2005, 10:01 PM   #17
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davis10 - I have been in constant contact with both Stand21 and Willens since the PRI show and have confirmed that they do not make a M10x1.25 eyebolt with the shank length that I need. They would have to be custom made which would become very expensive. It bites, but then again most people opt for underbody mounting plates when mounting racing harnesses in a Rally car. I have just chosen to be "stubborn" in trying to keep the car in a revertable state in case I ever sell it!

ernie - First off, yeah, I have given up on installing the belts until the Recaros arrive and have reverted back to the stock belts. At this point I just want to gather all the information that I need to make the final installation day a breeze. And I should have been more clear on my previous statement that you quoted me on.

What I was trying to explain was that installing the sub-belts inbetween the seat bottom & top should promote the proper angle in which the sub-belt should work. I have confirmed this with an FIA medical director who regulates WRC team overseas. Yes... in a crash I'd be in for some due pain, but my point was i'd rather be slightly hurt there than if I would have just installed the sub-belts to the front seat mounting points, rendering them useless in a frontal crash if one was to ever occur.

I am still researching various installation methods for the 5th & 6th points so please keep any information coming! I do appreciate all of it.

On another related note involving the Recaros, as it turns out I just realized that the Recaro Speeds have belt guides for 4-point harnesses only BUT do come with a optional 5th belt hole that can be added in for a nominal fee. I have not yet officially placed my order with Recaro yet, but was planning on doing so this weekend. Once I had realized this I was glad that I had delayed my order!

This mainly occured because the harnesses were given to me as a gift and I was expecting 4-points... The additional 2-point belts have made this installation experience very... educational...

I was wondering if anyone knew if this would work for my application? Especially since the 5th and 6th belts merge into a Y-bracket that then clips into the harness belt locking device.
Logically, I think this will be okay, to me it would seem it would be the same thing as running two shoulder belts through the headrest opening in the stock seats. Can someone please verify this for me?

If the above option turns out to be significantly dangerous, then I might have to give up reclinability and opt for a pair of Recaro Pole Position bucket seats instead of the Recaro Speeds. I would rather have the reclinability though because I do plan on taking these seats into my next vehicle when the time comes.

Any advice on choosing between the seats?

Last edited by nxwrxfx; 12-07-2005 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 12-09-2005, 10:33 AM   #18
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Methinks I might have to start another post about choosing between the seats... Hmmm....
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