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Old 12-07-2005, 04:38 PM   #1
makofoto
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Default AX Gear Cryo - Shot Peening Question ...

Stripped 2nd gear AX'ing ... I need advise on having my replacement 1st, 2nd and 3rd replacement gears Cyro'ed and Shot Peened.

I believe RA Gears are "triple peened?"

Should one have both done ... in what order?


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Old 12-07-2005, 04:43 PM   #2
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Old 12-07-2005, 06:01 PM   #3
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Advice depends on what class you're running in with the car. If you're sticking with SM I'd go as far as budget allowed to make the tranny more durable. If you're in another class you've got to find out if cryo or shot peening is even allowed. There was a discussion on cryo over at sccaforums just a week or so ago discussing whether or not it was allowed in specific classes.
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Old 12-07-2005, 07:46 PM   #4
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Cryoing is allowed in every class of every level of every motorsport.

From what I know of shot peening you could tell if something was shotpeened, so you wouldn't be able to do that in a class that didn't allow it.

-Tom
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:55 PM   #5
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right-on Mr. Hoppe ding.ding Good Answer!
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:03 PM   #6
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Are there any numbers on the strength improvements of cryo treating for gears? Given that I have the WRX that has likely gone through the most transmissions it is something that does haunt the back of my mind from time to time.

-Biggly
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:27 PM   #7
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I think there is an advantage to it. I talked to a local cryo shop here about the T2 and from all the fancy talk and guarantees, he has won me over. I've also seen people that really liked cryo treated rotors. We are cryoing all the rotors on the T2 car. Hell, if they last 10% longer, it will be worth it considering the price of rotors. When we build the new hot motor, we'll get the whole thing cryod as well. I will then be able to tell if that makes a difference.

As far as the tranny though. I would say its a "might as well" sort of expense if you are building a new one. Not sure if you could cryo treat a brand new one from subaru though as it comes full of fluid and you would have to drain it. You could never get *all* of it out and not sure if a cryo place would like that.

-Tom
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
Cryoing is allowed in every class of every level of every motorsport.
I don't see anything in the Solo rules that allows it in general. Of course it's ok if there's an explict allowance to modify that part for the class you're running (like brake rotors in STX).
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBiggly
Are there any numbers on the strength improvements of cryo treating for gears? Given that I have the WRX that has likely gone through the most transmissions it is something that does haunt the back of my mind from time to time.

-Biggly
Maybe just consider not letting Tom drive it?

Hoppe: huff a dong

Chris H.
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draken
Maybe just consider not letting Tom drive it?

Hoppe: huff a dong

Chris H.
A girl broke it the last time. Granted, she was under his direction...

Tom, I have another tranny sitting around that I will likely rebuild one of these days (that needs a 1st gear for sure, maybe more) and thus I'd get those pieces cryo'd. (Besides, those synchros were WAY better than the '02 synchros.)

Before anyone starts bitching, when the tranny got rebuilt the....eh, last time it was rebuilt, it was done so by Subaru. Their part numbers for rebuilds superceded and thus I ended up with a mix of synchro parts which turned out to make for a bit smoother shifting in cold weather and downshifting in particular. Made it act more like an '04/'05. Of course my favorite transmission blew up and thus I have a perfectly new out-of-the-crate-from-Japan '02 WRX transmission but it doesn't shift as smoothly thus my desire to rebuild the one I liked the feel and action of better.

-Biggly
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:54 AM   #11
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Add some Redline MT-90 to your tranny mix ... at least a quarter to a third of the mix ... your synchros need the added friction that MT-90 (or GM Synchromesh) provide ... for easier down shifting.

I used pure MT-90 and then a mixture for many thousands of miles ... 10k at least ... and my tranny innards were in near perfect condition at 36K.
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWRX
I don't see anything in the Solo rules that allows it in general. Of course it's ok if there's an explict allowance to modify that part for the class you're running (like brake rotors in STX).
Really? So there is a way for you to tell that I stuck my motor out in the cold, let it sit for a bit and then took it out?

Cryo treating is no different then putting something in an extreme environment, granted very extreme, and then removing it. I would love to see a protest telling me I cryo treated something

-Tom
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Old 12-08-2005, 09:22 AM   #13
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No, there would be no way for me to tell. But that doesn't make it legal. Check out what Andy Hollis had to say in the thread on sccaforums. He's much more eloquent than me, and since he's on the board that makes the final rules decisions, his point of view matters a whole lot more than mine. I just happen to agree with him in this case.
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Old 12-08-2005, 12:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
The Cryogenic process is a reverse heat treat process that does NOT decrease weight, increase hardness, change OEM specifications or increase performance. It reduces the induced mechanical stress in metal parts. It does increase the strength and endurance of the part. It therefore provides an economic and safety benefit.
Ahh, so much more eloquent then mine.

Either way, all my stuff is getting cryoed

-Tom
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Old 12-08-2005, 02:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makofoto
Stripped 2nd gear AX'ing ... I need advise on having my replacement 1st, 2nd and 3rd replacement gears Cyro'ed and Shot Peened.

I believe RA Gears are "triple peened?"

Should one have both done ... in what order?
Have you already bought the replacement gears? If not, then the best option by far is to pick up some PPG gears and run with them. They will far exceed the durability of RA gears or ordinaryparts+shootpeen+cryo.

gearboxtech.com is a good distributer and installer.
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Old 12-08-2005, 03:24 PM   #16
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I have ordered oem gears to treat ... but I'm checking with your recommendation. Thanks ...
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Old 12-08-2005, 05:51 PM   #17
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In my experience cryo treating rotors works really well. A lot more life and less cracking. In my experience cryo treating gears does not seem to help at all. YMMV. This subject has been discussed extensively in the transmission forum. It depends a lot on the type of stresses the part is exposed to and the type and quality of metal the part is made out of. Gears are already made from pretty good metal and have already gone through various heat treatment and shot peening from the factory.
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Old 12-08-2005, 06:44 PM   #18
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Thanks Dave ... is that why they say the RA gears are Triple Peened ... the oem ones are only single peened ?

I'm wondering how they shot peen to get at the base of the gears ... where the stripping of gears would seem to start. Very tiny shot peen media ... that would require a LOT of velocity to make up for their lack of mass?

That's why I was wondering if Cryo'ing would be better ... more "overall?"
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