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Old 12-05-2005, 08:24 PM   #1
skuttledude
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Default Recent AutoX accident? details?

Hopefully I'm not opening up a can of worms here:

Anyone know the details of what accident happened at a SCCA AutoX?
SCCA Forum/: http://sccaforums.com/forums/167002/ShowPost.aspx

I'm mainly interested because I firmly believe that we can all learn from other clubs and make our own club safer as an ongoing mission.

edit: if someone does have details of the incident, please respect people's rights and DO NOT make public the names (or Car, or car #'s etc..) of those involved.
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Last edited by skuttledude; 12-06-2005 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 12-05-2005, 08:59 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davis K Powers

I'm mainly interested because I firmly believe that we can all learn from other clubs and make our own club safer as an ongoing mission.
not a bad idea, but at least we should let the SCCA and their insurance carriers do their investigation into the matter before the incident becomes fodder for the internet forums...
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Old 12-05-2005, 09:24 PM   #3
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW
not a bad idea, but at least we should let the SCCA and their insurance carriers do their investigation into the matter before the incident becomes fodder for the internet forums...
Don't see how an open discussion on a forum will affect any investigation...

Bump for details...
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:08 PM   #4
Protege Menace
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wasnt there something like this before? on this forum? they were deleting his posts about an accident and stuff?
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:20 PM   #5
skuttledude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protege Menace
wasnt there something like this before? on this forum? they were deleting his posts about an accident and stuff?
this is an entirely new accident that just happened this past weekend I believe.
I have no idea where or what club is involved.


b
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:28 PM   #6
WRXedUSA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW
not a bad idea, but at least we should let the SCCA and their insurance carriers do their investigation into the matter before the incident becomes fodder for the internet forums...
I do agree, but often auotX incidents often get swept under the rug (for good reasons or not) quite often. Many example right here in "Motorsports".

Might be good to keep people honest if the opportunity arises.
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:35 PM   #7
adhowe70
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They're "swept under the rug" because SCCA has a prohibition on participants discussing the matter in public. Members may be punished for doing so under the rules and bylaws of the club.

National Solo rules (not just Solo2, general solo... page 5)

"In the event of an accident / incident during an event... no discussion of the accident shall be carried on with outside parties (except law enforcement authorities) without prior authorization by SCCA."

Andy H.
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:38 PM   #8
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Does anyone have an outside news link to the story? City, state?

My google sleuthing skills aren't turning up too much...
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Old 12-05-2005, 10:53 PM   #9
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Id be interested in the facts of the matter so a repeat of the incident can be avoided.

ernie
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:06 PM   #10
REX8
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
They're "swept under the rug" because SCCA has a prohibition on participants discussing the matter in public. Members may be punished for doing so under the rules and bylaws of the club.

National Solo rules (not just Solo2, general solo... page 5)

"In the event of an accident / incident during an event... no discussion of the accident shall be carried on with outside parties (except law enforcement authorities) without prior authorization by SCCA."

Andy H.
I smell First Amendment...
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:10 PM   #11
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I also am curious as to what happened. Maybe a mistake was made and if we knew something about what happened the mistake would not be repeated.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joey1313
I also am curious as to what happened. Maybe a mistake was made and if we knew something about what happened the mistake would not be repeated.
I can understand why the post was removed. Thanks to the internet, news like this spreads like crazy and before long it would be being discussed on every racing messageboard, by people that were not there to witness it. Like somebody else said, that would only lead to speculation, accusations, etc. IMHO, the SCCA should handle whatever happened by letting club safety stewards know about it, so they can figure out how to prevent it in the future. I'm sure the SCCA will release some news once all the facts are known. Some third party has no right to post info on a message forum, IMHO of course.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8
I smell First Amendment...
SCCA is a private club. Members are subject to the rules and bylaws of the club. Period. They agreed to abide by them when they signed their membership card.

Punishment for violation of club rules and bylaws can include revokation of rights of membership and exlusion from club activities. That is the extent of the club's powers. Think of it like violating your employer's policies. They can fire you, can't they? Well SCCA can expel you.

Your first amendment argument can piss off.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
SCCA is a private club. Members are subject to the rules and bylaws of the club. Period. They agreed to abide by them when they signed their membership card.

Punishment for violation of club rules and bylaws can include revokation of rights of membership and exlusion from club activities. That is the extent of the club's powers. Think of it like violating your employer's policies. They can fire you, can't they? Well SCCA can expel you.

Your first amendment argument can piss off.
I agree that the SCCA should have the right to kick out anyone that they want from their club, but this is America, home of the lawyer. I guarantee that if someone got expelled from the SCCA for discussing an accident under the premise of spreading the knowledge to other people in an attempt to prevent this from happening again, the expulsion wouldn't hold up in court. I'm not saying that I don't think it SHOULD, but I have a strong feeling that it wouldn't.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:44 PM   #15
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html
Quote:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:50 PM   #16
gregr01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
They're "swept under the rug" because SCCA has a prohibition on participants discussing the matter in public. Members may be punished for doing so under the rules and bylaws of the club.
National Solo rules (not just Solo2, general solo... page 5)
"In the event of an accident / incident during an event... no discussion of the accident shall be carried on with outside parties (except law enforcement authorities) without prior authorization by SCCA."
It is my interpretation of the above quoted rule that this applies to the SSS, not all participants generally.

The incident occurred not during an autox, per se, but during the "AZ Region 2005 Fall Driver's School."

I was not at the school, and little mention of the incident was made at the following day's autox.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:52 PM   #17
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I just want to know what happened. can they disclose any details and still protect the parties involved? I just dont like the vibe of sweeping it away from any public discourse.
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Old 12-05-2005, 11:53 PM   #18
ewright
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The original post mentioned someone being seriously injured, I hope they are alright. Its always sad to see a fellow enthusiast getting hurt doing what we enjoy.

Ernie
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:06 AM   #19
WRXedUSA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
They're "swept under the rug" because SCCA has a prohibition on participants discussing the matter in public. Members may be punished for doing so under the rules and bylaws of the club.

National Solo rules (not just Solo2, general solo... page 5)

"In the event of an accident / incident during an event... no discussion of the accident shall be carried on with outside parties (except law enforcement authorities) without prior authorization by SCCA."

Andy H.
Understood, and I read everyone's concerns on the link above.

But, as SCCA members, we are the people running these events. We are, collectively responsible for the safety, as much as the Safety Steward who is present and signs off on the event that day. There's no safety "god" at each event. We all have a duty.

Also, as SCCA members, we are the first to be effected by an accident, as drivers, courseworkers or organizers. While I respect the SCCA's accident clause, it doesnt help the situation when the club (regionally, divisionally or nationally) plays scuttle butt when questions get raised. Suspicion is sure to be raised.

The brutal, real question is: How else are people going to learn?

Again, a club is just that, a club. And this behavior *should* be expected. I guess I'm not really surprised. :/

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Old 12-06-2005, 12:41 AM   #20
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Did some sleuthing....

http://www.azsolo2.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3882

They're pretty tight-lipped too. I'll see if I can find anything else.

1. Here's the event: http://www.azsolo2.com/details/event20051203.htm
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:06 AM   #21
adhowe70
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I would encourage SCCA members to discuss the incident amongst themselves. This is how SCCA has chosen to deal with the issue. We had a physical injury incident recently in my region. Its the only one I've ever seen. If you want to discuss it with me, PM me. I'll be glad to discuss the circumstances.

I asked a friend in AZ region about the incident via email. If I hear back from him, I will share appropriate information (no names, just bland descriptions) with SCCA members only. This is our club's way of dealing with incidents and, though I may personally disagree, I will abide by it.

Regarding the applicability of the quoted rule to all participants, I agree the context makes the rule apply only to SSS's. However, since the SSS is the person on site that is charged with recording all of the pertinent data it would seem logical that if the SSS is prohibited from discussing the incident all others would be as well. They are (generally speaking) less informed about the incident than the SSS. Other participants discussion the incident would seem even less likely to give factual information or help the club's image. At least that's my interpretation and based on the info included in the AZ region forum linked above it appears to be the opinion of the national office.
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Old 12-06-2005, 01:11 AM   #22
ewright
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adhowe70,

although I just joined the SCCA, I would think that it would be a good idea to share the information with people who are very active within the motorsports community. for example, I spend a lot of time at BMW CCA autocrosses and perhaps the information from this incident would be of benefit at our next autocross and could save someone from a serious injury. I think that this is a very compelling reason for all motorosports organizations to actively disemminate information among themselves and their members about incidents and the causes of these incidents. just my humble 2 cents

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Old 12-06-2005, 07:50 AM   #23
KC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhowe70
They're "swept under the rug" because SCCA has a prohibition on participants discussing the matter in public. Members may be punished for doing so under the rules and bylaws of the club.

National Solo rules (not just Solo2, general solo... page 5)

Andy H.
False. They do not have a prohibition on particpants, discussing events. They have a prohibition on the SSS discussing matters.

Andy.... If the SCCA is going to hide behind rules... then the ones they are using to silence things over the club as a whoile need to be documented.

Let's quote the appropriate rules in their entirety, not little snippets...

Pages 4-5 2005 Solo-II Rule Book:
Quote:
4. SOLO SAFETY STEWARD PROGRAM

4.2 Duties
The primary duties of the SSS shall concern the safety of participants and non-participants. This includes course security, which is defined as maintaining control over non-participant access to the course. Course layout relative to driver and worker safety is also a concern of the SSS. Solo Safety Stewards are responsible to their Divisional Solo Safety Steward as follows:

D. In the event of an accident/incident during an event, notify all SCCA officials and the Club’s insurance carrier as indicated in the Solo Procedures Manual and the Accident/incident report form. A preliminary report shall be mailed within seven days and a more complete report mailed within a reasonable time thereafter. The Safety Steward shall respond to all questions from SCCA officials assigned to investigate the accident/ incident. However, no discussion on the accident shall be carried on with outside parties (except law enforcement authorities) without authorization by SCCA. In any discussion, only statement of fact, rather than opinion, should be offered. Mail all completed reports to the appropriate SCCA and/or insurance carrier offices.
That rule people are quoting are for Solo Safety Stewards since they are the ones responsible for the safety of an event. I can understand the club wanting to keep things on the down low, to protect those injured from wild speculation,, and to limit those from losing sites across the country (ie: this post: http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/16722...st.aspx#167225 which I am in full agreement with).

However, I am of the incination a discussion can occur without names (persons or club names). The club has no authority to tell non-safety stewards they cannot talk about it. To suggest that is absurd. Safety stewards cannot talk about it becuase in the case of litigation, if it ever comes to that, they will be called upon to tell their side of the story in support of the club as to how safe the event was... no?

--kC

Last edited by KC; 12-06-2005 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 12-06-2005, 07:59 AM   #24
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let it be. accidents are just that. sometimes they can't be avoided. if there was a problem with procedure, scca national will address it. insurance companies have been known to cancel policies based on crap said on the internet. do YOU want to be party to having someone's much needed and valid insurance claim denied? i don't. autocross sites have been lost because of crap said on the internet. do YOU want to be party to a region loosing an event site? i don't.

nate - hates internet rubbernecking as much as he hates real world rubbernecking
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:46 AM   #25
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Since everybody claims to just want to know about the incident in order to learn from it, I can tell you all that the only thing to learn from the incident in AZ is that when you are on foot in a hot area of the venue (course, grid, timing area) you must always be aware of your surroundings, ALWAYS. Even when courses and events are done exactly by the book, safety wise, there is a chance for that random freak incident to occur.
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