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Old 12-09-2005, 02:55 PM   #1
nxwrxfx
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Default Help needed now!! (Recaro Speeds vs Pole Positions!)

Hey everyone,
Well here's my problem...
I am getting a new pair of Recaro seats as soon as I can make a decision on which kind to buy. I'm having trouble deciding on which kind to get though.
I currently have a pair of Stand21 / Willens 6-point harnesses that are in the process of being installed.

Basically, I want these new seats to accurately reinforce the racing harnesses and there functionalilty, rather to impair there use.
I also would like to have the functionality of reclining seats because I don't know how much longer I will have the WRX and would like to take these new seats into the next car that I own. Therefore, having reclining seats might be nice...

Basically, I have read that the Recaro Speeds will support 4-point harnesses and have an optional 5th-point bracket that can be added to the seats. My Stand21 / Willens harnesses have a 5th & 6th point that combine together to form a Y-bracket just before they attach to the belt locking device. I need some info on whether or not the Recaro Speeds will work with the 6-point harnesses.

If not, or if it ends up being unsafe to use 6-point harnesses on a set of 5-point seats I have considered the Recaro Pole Positions. The only problem with this set of seats is that they lack reclinability, which may be an issue in the future...

I'm looking for opinions here I guess, because honestly if anyone knows that the Recaro Speeds will support the 6-point harnesses safely then I have made my decision. But if this turns out to be a dangerous venture then I really need to reconsider my options before I order these seats.

I know it's asking a lot, but I need to decide in the next 48 hours...
I have a deal in place for the Recaro Speeds currently, so if I need to change to the Recaro Pole Positions I need to do it now.

Thanks for any information you all can give me!
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:04 PM   #2
trhoppe
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:27 PM   #3
javid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
lol,
thats clASSic.


I would think that you could just combine the 5th and 6th straps onto one mounting location.

Of course, you'll probably going to die in a fire if you install harnesses and a seat with out a full roll cage.

I hope you're buying from Titan. Free plug for Brad.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:29 PM   #4
trhoppe
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Quote:
I'm looking for opinions here I guess, because honestly if anyone knows that the Recaro Speeds will support the 6-point harnesses safely then I have made my decision. But if this turns out to be a dangerous venture then I really need to reconsider my options before I order these seats.
Seriously. Why wouldn't you ask THE MANUFACTURER that question?

If you were asking an opinion such as "hey, which one is more comfortable" then yes, ask away, but this is something that is supposed to save your life. Why not ask the people that make it?

-Tom
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:33 AM   #5
nxwrxfx
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Mainly because I have about 15 hours to make a decision and usually when I contact companies directly they take days to reply... if not weeks!
And no, not buying from Titan, although I have been meaning to talk to them about how much it'll cost to have an uppipe installed if I can't manage to do it myself!
Anyway, I think i'm going with the Speeds though, because if worse comes to worst I'll mod the harnesses to become 4-points instead of 6-points if they won't work with the seats.
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Old 12-10-2005, 05:28 AM   #6
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www.speedwaremotorsports.com

Get their number and call 'em, even if it's long distance. They're open saturday. If you can, try and talk to Andrew, but I'm not sure if he'll be working saturday. He's the one I always ask for my seat questions.

Getting a 5th point hole for a Speed is going to cost extra. Pole Positions will require side mount brackets, though, making them more expensive to mount. I believe the Pole Position has only 1 hole in the bottom, and would thus have the same support for a 6-point as the Speed with a hole. I think the only real point of the 6-point harness is to let it split and go around your nutsack. I think they're still intended to go through one hole in the seat. But I'm not an expert.

If you daily drive your car, you will probably get sick of the Pole Positions pretty fast, especially if you live / work in an area with tight parking spaces.

I have a recaro speed, and it gets a bit uncomfortable on long trips, as my butt is a bit wide for the bottom cushion (6'1" 230lbs). But other than that, I love it.

-Mike
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:31 AM   #7
Chuck H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javid
Of course, you'll probably going to die in a fire if you install harnesses and a seat with out a full roll cage.
All kidding aside, this is an issue that you should be aware of. If you're even considering a reclining "racing" seat, it's obvious that you don't actually want the seat or harnesses for racing, and that you're getting them for the look. Real racers would never use a reclining seat because they're not as strong and MUCH heavier than fixed back seats.

You really do need to be aware that a racing seat and harnesses can kill you in a roll-over accident which you would probably survive in a stock seat with stock 3-point seatbelts. They should really only be used in a car with a rollbar as a minimum and a full roll cage is even better. In the case of a roll-over, you can't move if the seat and harness are installed properly, and the roof if very likely to crush your skull or break your neck when it compresses down. With the stock seat/seatbelts, you tend to be thrown to the side, and while you get all banged up and bruised, you also live to tell about it.
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck H
You really do need to be aware that a racing seat and harnesses can kill you in a roll-over accident which you would probably survive in a stock seat with stock 3-point seatbelts. They should really only be used in a car with a rollbar as a minimum and a full roll cage is even better. In the case of a roll-over, you can't move if the seat and harness are installed properly, and the roof if very likely to crush your skull or break your neck when it compresses down. With the stock seat/seatbelts, you tend to be thrown to the side, and while you get all banged up and bruised, you also live to tell about it.
Can I nominate this for the most overhyped thing you'll ever read on the internet? I swear, I read it on every forum. Talk to a racing safety expert and they will probably disagree with you on this. Schroth, probably the most renowned harness maker in the world, makes harnesses like the one I have for use WITHOUT rollover protection. Why would a company that makes restraint systems do that if it was so unsafe and gauranteed to kill you (as you stated)? And don't say its for the bling factor because IMHO Schroth is not a bling company.
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:16 PM   #9
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I second that

I generally discourage people from running a few things on the street. Harnesses are one because if they properly restrain you into the seat you cannot look behind you - ie your shoulders are restrained from twisting. I don't like cages without helmets: too much to smack your head into. I also will never sit in the backseat of a car that has a harness bar. If there is an accident some part of me is going to split open or crack in half.

I do have clip-in harnesses that I wear at driving events but never on the street.
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Old 12-10-2005, 02:39 PM   #10
nxwrxfx
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Thanks for all of your help guys.
I've actually decided to go with the Recaro Speeds with the 5th mounting point. I talked to a rep at Recaro North America and this should work fine for my application.

grippgoat - Thanks for your opinion on the Speeds. The more I looked into them and talked to reps I have decided to get those. If the 5th & 6th points don't fit correctly then I'm going to just end up converting the harnesses to 4-points instead.

Chuck H - Yeah, I'm not getting these seats & harnesses for "racing" because this is still my daily driver that I'm planning to take to SCCA/AutoX events.
I do not plan on getting these for "looks" either, as significant testing has proven that the combination of the Recaro seats, harness bar, and harnesses will do nothing but increase my level of protection while driving my car vs. the stock equipment. If I was getting these just for "looks" then I'd probably be one of those people w/o a harness bar and attaching the shoulder harness clips underneath my seat, not really bolting down to any mounting points at all.

I do realize how much info there is about harness bars w/o roll cages, but I'm taking the risk. Another thing I'm getting sick of is mere opinions on why this lack of a roll cage is so dangerous. I think we all need to start citing sources rather then just stating "I heard this" or "My friend said this."

To back myself up I personally have seen a ton of testing data from the company that has created & engineered the HANS device for racing, and in the testing process they tested several different accidents with different belts & seats in a ton of combinations.

The end result proved that in order to "snap your spinal cord" by being pinned down by racing harnesses in an accident, that you would have to impact the roof in an exact way in order for it to hurt you. As an added point, the data also showed that you would still be hurt (sometimes just as badly) even with a roll cage installed. The chance that I will meet all of these rare circumstances driving the way I do on the street are very slim. Just because I have a fast car doesn't mean that I'm going to push 100mph+ on every back road that I can find. That's why there are track days anyway, for the specific purpose of going to a location where you are under controlled racing conditions and don't have to worry about x-factors such as other drivers/wildlife/adverse road conditions.

In order to cause any kind of deadly spinal compression and/or to be "pinned" under the roof in a crash without a rollcage you have to meet very specific events at very high speeds.
My father is an orthopedic surgeon that specializes in engineering devices for motorsport events as well as performing surgery on victims of high-speed professional racing events, so I know where I stand with my information.
While I am not denying that there is a risk, I just want you guys to know that this is a little bit overhyped. Of course, you do run into more problems trying to drive a car on both the street and the track, and I do believe it is very important to explore all angles of possibilities in case of an accident.

I will step off of my soapbox now, and I do thank you all for your opinions as many of them have helped me reach a decision.
As an added point, I hope the counter-information that I have said will help influence your decisions in the future as well.

Thanks again!

Last edited by nxwrxfx; 12-10-2005 at 02:45 PM.
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