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Old 12-10-2005, 07:19 AM   #1
jcroy66
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Exclamation Info to improve chances of STU/STS2 becoming National classes in 2007

Doug Gill has some important suggestions for any of the STU/STS2 crowd that wish to see those classes become full National classes in 2007:

http://www.scca.org/garage/forum/for...?TID=2956&PN=1
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:26 AM   #2
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Quote:
It will not be considered to be a National class before the 2007 season. Do not believe it to be automatic - the membership should demonstrate it's support for STS2 to be a National class by participation numbers and letters. Without member support, it may never be a National class.

Requests for rule changes in 2007 need to be sent NOW!
I do not like the sound of that at all. It sounds like the people that have put forth the money, time, and effort to build an campaign an STS2 car and make it an official class may very well end up being obsoleted by the folks that sit at home and write a letter saying they want their car (1.8 LSD Miata, 2gen MR2, whatever) to be eligible for the class.
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:48 AM   #3
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All Doug stated was a pretty clear explanation of how a class (or rule) change can happen. Talking it to death on forums like nasioc and sccaforums.com does very little. The more formal ways that the rule season works now is a HUGE improvement from 4-5 years back when the SEB and committees were completely opaque and rule changes were often surprises.

The long and short of it is that if people want STS2 and STU to become national classes that they should both write effective letters _and_ go to big events, even though the classes are supplemental.

Editorial: The STS2 crowd better get busy writing letters in support of the current differential rule -- there's lots of people moaning about the fact that the later LSD-equipped Miatae etc aren't allowed in STS2. I say let them propose STX2, as there is NO way that CRX's and non-LSD Miatas would be competitive against something like a '99 Miata with LSD.

--Kevin H.
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Old 12-10-2005, 02:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwh29
Editorial: The STS2 crowd better get busy writing letters in support of the current differential rule -- there's lots of people moaning about the fact that the later LSD-equipped Miatae etc aren't allowed in STS2. I say let them propose STX2, as there is NO way that CRX's and non-LSD Miatas would be competitive against something like a '99 Miata with LSD.

--Kevin H.
The problem with the proposition of STX2 is there aren't enough people showing up for STS2 by adding yet another class so quickly this will disperse people even more. Right now it seems we have to work on building up both the STS2 and STU classes at Tour and Prosolo events. Kevin is right there is no way a '99 Miata with the LSD would be anywhere equal to an open diff equipped Miata. STU is in just as much trouble of not being made a full National class because of lack of attendance. Have a look at results at the SE Divisional events. There were like 3 or 4 people at most running STU and they barely made the minimum amount of 25 at Topeka. What everyone needs to do is if you are serious about running either of these classes is get up and go out to the big events. Nothing else will make the classes get full National status.
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:45 PM   #5
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In the Los Angeles area ... this year we regularily had 9 STU runners ... next year we will have at least 13 ... I believe at least 4 are already planning on going to the Nationals ... there should be a very good STU turn out at the San Diego National Tour next March ... and the Fontanta Pro Solo ...
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:11 PM   #6
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We had only a couple of entires in STU last year in Oregon region. This year we will have around 6-7 regular competitors. I believe that the NT at Packwood had 6 entries last year and I think we will easily double that number this year.

The class is definately growing. I'd sure like to see the boost restriction go away though.

James
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Old 12-11-2005, 02:11 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by qcslvr30
I'd sure like to see the boost restriction go away though.
If the boost restriction went away where would that leave the M3 and RX8. There is no way these cars could be competitive against unlimited boost equipped STi's and Evo's. I think in the name of good competition that the boost limitation rule be kept. Plus from what I have heard from Mark Daddio in his SM Evo he had a hard time finding a course where his high boost computer setting would give him any major advantage over his slightly higher than stock boost settings. Just my $0.02
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Old 12-11-2005, 06:45 PM   #8
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I really think if the boost restriction goes away, a new classing structure would be necessary. In which case, it's possible the STis and Evos might be in a class all by themselves or might not even have a place to play at all.
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Old 12-11-2005, 07:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo2wrx
If the boost restriction went away where would that leave the M3 and RX8. There is no way these cars could be competitive against unlimited boost equipped STi's and Evo's. I think in the name of good competition that the boost limitation rule be kept. Plus from what I have heard from Mark Daddio in his SM Evo he had a hard time finding a course where his high boost computer setting would give him any major advantage over his slightly higher than stock boost settings. Just my $0.02
Wait so unlimited boost would make it unfair for non boosted cars but the car wont be any faster than it would with some boost
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:39 PM   #10
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I agree that dereg. the boost would open a whole can of worms. I just don't know many Suby owners that dont turn up the boost as one of the first upgrades. The average Suby enthusiast comes to autox and is automatically thrown into SM or SP where he hasn't got a chance. I suppose this is more of a local issue. If they did open boost up, why not allow slightly more tire for the 2wders?

James
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:41 PM   #11
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2wds are already allowed more tire, in stu at least.
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Old 12-12-2005, 08:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qcslvr30
I agree that dereg. the boost would open a whole can of worms. I just don't know many Suby owners that dont turn up the boost as one of the first upgrades. The average Suby enthusiast comes to autox and is automatically thrown into SM or SP where he hasn't got a chance. I suppose this is more of a local issue. If they did open boost up, why not allow slightly more tire for the 2wders?

James
Yes, it is mostly a local issue because those at the Div/National level understand the rules and prep the car within those rules.

And as afpdl said, STU allows up to 275 tires for 2WD cars already. In STX, the 2WD non-BMW cars that are legal in the class have issues fitting 225s, never mind 245s.. so offering 2WD cars more tire would only benefit one car... the BMWs.

-kC
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afpdl
Wait so unlimited boost would make it unfair for non boosted cars but the car wont be any faster than it would with some boost
I said that Mark Daddio was running 2 boost settings. A slightly above stock boost setting and a high boost setting. He has said that he could never find a place to use the high boost setting because no autocross had enough space to get fully into the power. I never said that it wasn't faster than stock. I was just stating that more boost isn't always the way to get faster. Either way unlimited boost regs>stock boost, with a properly sorted car.
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:34 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by solo2wrx
What everyone needs to do is if you are serious about running either of these classes is get up and go out to the big events. Nothing else will make the classes get full National status.
Bingo, quit talking about it and just get out there and do it!
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:45 AM   #15
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Note that Mark Daddio's SM evo was not using the stock turbo or cams and was making quite a bit more power than an STU legal evo could with his low power boost setting.
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Got Pink?
Note that Mark Daddio's SM evo was not using the stock turbo or cams and was making quite a bit more power than an STU legal evo could with his low power boost setting.
Yes but he did start out the season running two different boost settings on the stock turbo and this is what I was referring to. I remember him distinctly saying that he could never find a course that gave the high boost setting "on the stock turbo" a distinct advantage because of loss of mid-range tuning for the all out high end.
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:26 PM   #17
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How exactly does a higher boost setting on the same turbo cause a powerloss in the midrange?
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by afpdl
How exactly does a higher boost setting on the same turbo cause a powerloss in the midrange?
It is not a loss but to gain top end you have to run a different fuel curve then when you are looking to beef up you low and mid range. Now unless I am wrong cars that go for all out top end will be lacking somewhat in the low end department just based on ignition and fuel mapping. It is basically impossible to make max top end power and max mid range torque. Most autocross computer tunes tend to lean towards the more usable mid-range power/torque boost. You are not actually experiencing a loss but the mid-range won't be as strong with a big top end tune. This is just what I have learned from tuning cars over the last 8 years. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
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