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Old 12-12-2005, 12:43 PM   #1
Beanboy
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Default direct injection

With Toyota going mainstream with a direct injection motor (3.5L V6) on multiple models, how long do you think before Subaru introduces direct injection?

Big plus for turbo Subarus:
  • Lower emissions. Current Subaru turbo motors aren't that clean in comparision to V6 NA motors of similar output.
  • Improved fuel economy. Boost city/highway estimates, help counteract the fulltime AWD penalty.
  • More power/better power delivery. Higher CR for better low-end/off-turbo boost, more power up high.
With minimal other changes, bet the STI could get a solid 40HP boost, while other turbo models could get a solid 20HP with a 1-2 mpg boost in fuel economy along with meeting ULEV emission standards. All would benefit from less perceived turbo lag.

What do you think? Maybe for the 2008 model year?

-B
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:31 PM   #2
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I feel that Subaru sort of dropped the ball by not jumping on the Direct injection sooner. Isuzu was making a couple of DI models in the same factory that was building the Subaru Legacys before Isuzu pulled out of the factory. I really wished Subaru would have tried to incorperate that technology before they left.
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:42 PM   #3
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Isn't Audi doing quite a bit with DI now?
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balbino
Isuzu was making a couple of DI models in the same factory that was building the Subaru Legacys before Isuzu pulled out of the factory.
Weren't those diesel engines? If so, big difference.
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:09 PM   #5
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I don't think anyone denies the value of direct injection.

My personal theory is that Subaru is waiting for Porsche to implement it so they can get ideas on how to do it with their own flat, strongly oversquare motor designs. Also, if it's on the 997 turbo they'll be able to see a forced-induction application too.

Stephen


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanboy
With Toyota going mainstream with a direct injection motor (3.5L V6) on multiple models, how long do you think before Subaru introduces direct injection?

Big plus for turbo Subarus:
  • Lower emissions. Current Subaru turbo motors aren't that clean in comparision to V6 NA motors of similar output.
  • Improved fuel economy. Boost city/highway estimates, help counteract the fulltime AWD penalty.
  • More power/better power delivery. Higher CR for better low-end/off-turbo boost, more power up high.
With minimal other changes, bet the STI could get a solid 40HP boost, while other turbo models could get a solid 20HP with a 1-2 mpg boost in fuel economy along with meeting ULEV emission standards. All would benefit from less perceived turbo lag.

What do you think? Maybe for the 2008 model year?

-B
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:21 PM   #6
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I believe Isusu was first manufacturer in the USA to offer gasoline direct injection engines.
I think it is called swan song in English ;-)

Krzys
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:27 PM   #7
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Isuzu had a direct injection 3.5L NA gas V6 in the US market. Standard on the Axiom for 2004 and optional on the Rodeo. Power went from 230Hp to 250HP, torque from 230 to 246, and fuel economy went from 16/20 to 17/21.

Really think with Subaru offering so many turbo models, borderline CAFE numbers (hence the Forester and Outbacks now being considered trucks), and ever-stricter emission standards along with needing more power to stay competitive, it would be a neat way to boost everything fairly cheaply for a small company like Subaru.

-B
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:30 PM   #8
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Can someone post a link so I can read up on this.
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:31 PM   #9
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:40 PM   #10
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Man, I thought this thread was going to be about porn!!
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krzyss
I believe Isusu was first manufacturer in the USA to offer gasoline direct injection engines.
I think it is called swan song in English ;-)

Krzys
Actually, I believe that distinction belongs to Mercedes-Benz for the 3-liter inline-6 used in the 300SL Gullwing and and the 300d (not diesel) sedans of the latter 1950s.

Stephen
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenmeade
Actually, I believe that distinction belongs to Mercedes-Benz for the 3-liter inline-6 used in the 300SL Gullwing and and the 300d (not diesel) sedans of the latter 1950s.

Stephen
Infact, the Daimler-Benz 600 series aircraft engines, of Messerschmitt Bf-109 fame, were Direct Injection in the late 1930s, giving German fighters an inherent advantage in a dogfight.
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:15 PM   #13
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OK.
I suspect that some German planes that made it to US soil after WWII had mechanical direct injection (like Daimler Benz DB60x family, powering Messerschmitt Bf109 and Me110 ;-)

I did not know that gullwing had direct injection. It was truly futuristic vehicle.

Krzys

Edit
PS I am not the only airplane junkie around here but I was late ;-)

Last edited by krzyss; 12-12-2005 at 03:17 PM. Reason: too slow to post
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Old 12-12-2005, 03:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanboy
With Toyota going mainstream with a direct injection motor (3.5L V6) on multiple models, how long do you think before Subaru introduces direct injection?

Big plus for turbo Subarus:
  • Lower emissions. Current Subaru turbo motors aren't that clean in comparision to V6 NA motors of similar output.
  • Improved fuel economy. Boost city/highway estimates, help counteract the fulltime AWD penalty.
  • More power/better power delivery. Higher CR for better low-end/off-turbo boost, more power up high.
With minimal other changes, bet the STI could get a solid 40HP boost, while other turbo models could get a solid 20HP with a 1-2 mpg boost in fuel economy along with meeting ULEV emission standards. All would benefit from less perceived turbo lag.

What do you think? Maybe for the 2008 model year?

-B

Lower emissions ??? Uhhh, you do realize that all the turbo Subaru's qualify as Certified Low Emission Vehicles.... ???

That's one of the reasons why Subaru now uses the 2.5L across the line, as for 2006 the U.S. will introduce new emissions standards and we can now make more power w/o compromising the new laws....
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Old 12-12-2005, 04:05 PM   #15
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I know they meet LEV standards, even the STI does. But the STI is at the bottom within that range in terms of emissions given the power output, and the LGT isn't far behind.

The 2006 WRX does get a big boost and is at least equal compared to motors with similar output, which I didn't realize until ten minutes ago, hehe.

Since there are so many Subarus using the 2.5L turbo, direct injection would be that much better to implement across the models.

-B

Last edited by Beanboy; 12-12-2005 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:17 PM   #16
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Wow.. this entire thread and nobody has mentioned that the MazdaSpeed 5, the Legacy GT's most direct competator, uses Direct Injection. Tisk Tisk


Edit: I said 5 when I meant 6

Tisk Tisk on me

Last edited by Calamity Jesus; 12-12-2005 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Pwned by Beanboy
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Old 12-12-2005, 05:25 PM   #17
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Mazdaspeed is making a version of the 5 eh? I didn't know that.

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Old 12-12-2005, 08:07 PM   #18
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Another good point to add to increased fuel economy and power is the removal of some components including the tumble generator valves used to better atomize the fuel/air mixture for cleaner and more complete burning of the fuel. It also is somewhat of a restriction too.

I'm very interested in seeing direct injection added, additionally want to see other technologies, but this would be a good head start. Would nice to see more fuel efficiency and smooth running.
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:03 PM   #19
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Subaru seems to be a bit Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde when it comes to engine technology. Sometimes they go hog-wild with cool stuff and other times they are a bit slow to to adopt.

Stephen


Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBE555
Another good point to add to increased fuel economy and power is the removal of some components including the tumble generator valves used to better atomize the fuel/air mixture for cleaner and more complete burning of the fuel. It also is somewhat of a restriction too.

I'm very interested in seeing direct injection added, additionally want to see other technologies, but this would be a good head start. Would nice to see more fuel efficiency and smooth running.
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Old 12-13-2005, 01:01 AM   #20
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Yeah, well active valve control isn't exactly new by any means and direct injection is now several years old in production models and quite a few automakers have gained acceptance of it, so they're definitely not on the leading edge here.

I've love to see them go camless with head technology, do that and direct injection at the same time. Hey, you already are having to redesign the heads and much of the engine for it, might as well make a revolutionary leap all at one time if possible.

I really think it would be incredibly exciting if they were able to move the accessories to the aft end of the engine including the larger alternator, pumps and well the timing belt,cam gears and all that stuff would be gone allowing the cooling system to be located much farther back nearly against the block, if the pumps all were able to be direct drive or geared instead of use belts, less maintainence and greater reliability while moving these components aft would allow for greater rearward weight transfer and also a shorter nose that could be carved lower for greater aerodynamics as well as lesser approach and departure angles. Direct injection and camless valvetrains (which would need a like a 42V electrical system) would help reduce the rotating mass significantly, while also increasing the flow efficiency and tunability of the engine for really getting better emissions, fuel economy, and performance. Maybe even near 400 N/A ponies could be had out of an EZ30R while utilizing such advanced technologies (the hardest part really is then programming it.)

I'd just love to see them get up off their laurels and innovate!
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBE555
Yeah, well active valve control isn't exactly new by any means and direct injection is now several years old in production models and quite a few automakers have gained acceptance of it, so they're definitely not on the leading edge here.

I've love to see them go camless with head technology, do that and direct injection at the same time. Hey, you already are having to redesign the heads and much of the engine for it, might as well make a revolutionary leap all at one time if possible.

I really think it would be incredibly exciting if they were able to move the accessories to the aft end of the engine including the larger alternator, pumps and well the timing belt,cam gears and all that stuff would be gone allowing the cooling system to be located much farther back nearly against the block, if the pumps all were able to be direct drive or geared instead of use belts, less maintainence and greater reliability while moving these components aft would allow for greater rearward weight transfer and also a shorter nose that could be carved lower for greater aerodynamics as well as lesser approach and departure angles. Direct injection and camless valvetrains (which would need a like a 42V electrical system) would help reduce the rotating mass significantly, while also increasing the flow efficiency and tunability of the engine for really getting better emissions, fuel economy, and performance. Maybe even near 400 N/A ponies could be had out of an EZ30R while utilizing such advanced technologies (the hardest part really is then programming it.)

I'd just love to see them get up off their laurels and innovate!
So in essence, you take the flat engine configuration, give it infinitely variable valve timing (camless) and direct fuel injection.

But, what if you take it a step further, use an alternator that runs off exhaust gasses, use an electric water pump, and electric power steering. You would have a totally beltless engine setup, nothing to sap power and an improvement in fuel economy.
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Old 12-13-2005, 02:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewMarchand
So in essence, you take the flat engine configuration, give it infinitely variable valve timing (camless) and direct fuel injection.

But, what if you take it a step further, use an alternator that runs off exhaust gasses, use an electric water pump, and electric power steering. You would have a totally beltless engine setup, nothing to sap power and an improvement in fuel economy.

I personally like BMW's new steam technology:

http://www.mph-online.com/web/prtranslated/307

Stephen
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:36 PM   #23
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Combustion is more-or-less completed by the time 35 ATC is reached. Why not inject some water into the chamber at that point? It will flash to steam almost instantly and any book of steam tables will tell you how much additional pressure that steam will create in the combustion chamber.
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:41 PM   #24
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DI is the obvious way to go for most manufacturers anyway. Sooner or later everyone will be on board, and the question is when Subaru will jump in.

I think it is important to note that in this early stage of gas DI engines, probably the biggest beneficiaries of this technology are the turbo motors like Audi's 2.0T and Mazdaspeed6's 2.3T. The best thing about them is that they can afford to increase the compression ratio with DI, over 9.0. This will not only make the engine more efficient, but also easier to drive off boost.

It really seems like this is the only way Suby can make the EJ series world class motor. When?
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Old 12-13-2005, 03:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewMarchand
You would have a totally beltless engine setup, nothing to sap power and an improvement in fuel economy.
I believe a turbine driven alternator would still sap power. Turbochargers don't get their power completely freely... the engine still drives the turbine.

Just use a combination flywheel/generator/starter like those already being used on hybrids and power your electrical accessories off of that. It's simpler and cleaner.
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