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Old 12-14-2005, 04:37 PM   #1
skuttledude
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Default Solo2: What ever happened to a real stock class?

I remember when I started I was in GS in a Alfa Romeo...latter was in a stock class for my 2.5RS and then AS for my STi. (I'm now Sm in my STi)

Aftermarket Front Sway bars are allowed in stock class, suspension changes (have to be same sisze or whatever) are in Stock class, Cat-back exhaust, Uber sticky tires are allowed in stock class and a bunch of other things I can't recall off the top of my head.....

My questions remains....

Whatever happened to a class of car that is suppose to be just like the one you buy off the showroom floor??? Why can't this exist? It would be nice if STOCK actually meant something.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:02 PM   #2
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Being a conspiracy theorist that I am, I think the allowances in stock class came about between the SCCA and certain manfacturers so that those cars would be faster. Imprezas are basically screwed in stock classes because none of the allowances really do anything positive for the car. The STI MAY benefit from new shocks, but that's about it. I still haven't any real "on course" proof that a front sway bar is beneficial for Subarus.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:08 PM   #3
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You guys are funny.

You are allowed front bars - a) saves $$ on tires b) makes some cars safer c) its an old rule
You are allowed shocks - a) when your shocks wear out you don't have to buy THE EXACT SAME ONES as stock, you can buy replacements b) it would be impossible to police "totally stock" shocks, so this rule prevents cheating
you are allowed cat backs - a) give me a ****ing break. its a cat back, shut up
you are allowed tires - a) what, you want OEM tires? what if you wear yours out, where are you supposed to get more? are you going to limit people to just 1 tire? how is that right? well, we follow DOT standards. The govenment says its ok to drive these tires on the street, use them for this class.

Basically, shut up

-Tom
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:13 PM   #4
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Personally, I don't understand the front sway bar allowance, however the rest of the rules I do understand. Most of those things are pieces that can and will wear out (or rust out in the case of the exhaust) and they are parts that are most often replaced with aftermarket parts, not OE. When plugs and plug wires go out, they are generally replaced with aftermarket. When struts and shocks wear out, most people do not replace them with factory pieces, and so forth.

The tires fall into the DOT regulations, which is the tire manufactures blame, not the SCCA or anyone else. They did outlaw true slicks and they are still illegal. R-compounds are street legal DOT certified, which is what the rules specify. Even if they went to a treadwear limit (as in the ST classes) we would just start seeing more and more tires like the RT215 and 615 Azenis which are getting closer to R compounds anyway, and we would soon be back at the same point.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
You are allowed shocks - a) when your shocks wear out you don't have to buy THE EXACT SAME ONES as stock, you can buy replacements
I agree with eveything except this: There's no reason to allow replacement shocks with damping adjustment, unless standard (e.g. GMs "active" shocks, etc).

... and at this point, since we have successful ST* classes, reverting stock to 140+ treadwear tires (except if standard) wouldn't hurt things, either.

... and of course, if you're not running R-comps, then you might not need that front swaybar allowance, either.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:17 PM   #6
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The front bar allowance was added back in the day to prevent cars from flipping. I think it was argued that "if they get it everyone has to get it" and it has never been removed.

-Tom
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:19 PM   #7
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a) 140+ treadwear will do nothing. You do realise that treadwear is pointless right? The Hoosier A3S05 will get 300 treadwear in a test. Tire companies would just do that.

b) Adjustability is for cost cutting and to prevent cheating. If you weren't allowed adjustable shocks, but were allowed aftermarket non-adjustables. The highest budget cars would travel with 3 sets of shocks and "adjust" but replacing shocks. Its easier to allow adjustable.

Other then the front bar rule, which I agree could be removed with no complications, all the other STOCK class rules have a point and are there for a reason.

-Tom
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:28 PM   #8
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i agree with Tom.

Quote:
I still haven't any real "on course" proof that a front sway bar is beneficial for Subarus.
you're kidding, right? it makes a HUGE difference! only the tires make a bigger difference. dampers do make a difference as well, though less noticably.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDestructo
I still haven't any real "on course" proof that a front sway bar is beneficial for Subarus.
I can tell you with %100 certainty that the larger front sway bar helped my car. I can't imagine going back.

Let me try to quantify the benefits.

Increased Turn-in
Able to hold a tigher line
Better grip through slaloms and all other transitional events
Reduced wear on my tires.
Ability to power out of tight corners while still holding the line

This was noticable on the "Old" Falken Azenis and Kumho 710's and RE92's.

I was able to make a roughly 0.5xx second improvment on a 40 sec course with nothing but a line change, on one corner. A change that would've not been possible with the stock front sway bar.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:31 PM   #10
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10th Warrior and ratt_finkel, I just ignored his post as it was the stupidest thing I've read today.....and I've been in OT.... You guys would probably benefit from doing the same

-Tom
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
10th Warrior and ratt_finkel, I just ignored his post as it was the stupidest thing I've read today.....and I've been in OT.... You guys would probably benefit from doing the same

-Tom
i agree with Tom again
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
10th Warrior and ratt_finkel, I just ignored his post as it was the stupidest thing I've read today.....and I've been in OT.... You guys would probably benefit from doing the same

-Tom
Now I know where all the inteligent posts have been.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratt_finkel
Now I know where all the inteligent posts have been.
They have been at sccaforums discussing how T2 STis are getting >340whp!

-Tom
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
They have been at sccaforums discussing how T2 STis are getting >340whp!

-Tom
haha, yeah, I saw those too
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:40 PM   #15
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Stock class has been adjustable shocks, front anti-roll bar, and sticky tires for a long time. This isn't something that just popped up recently. Hell, I remember running on used Yokohama A-001R tires back in like 1990 with my Yugo. When were you running your Alfa and 2.5RS?

Hoppe: you benefited from a bigger bar cause your bar is tiny.

oh snap.
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:17 PM   #16
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I believe a big point is to make the cars closer in terms of competitiveness for a class. It would be either boring and not financially good for the motorsports event if one car dominated.
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impreza01
I believe a big point is to make the cars closer in terms of competitiveness for a class. It would be either boring and not financially good for the motorsports event if one car dominated.
What are you talking about? Thats why there are many classes.

-Tom
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impreza01
I believe a big point is to make the cars closer in terms of competitiveness for a class. It would be either boring and not financially good for the motorsports event if one car dominated.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this meant that the current rules allow more cars to be competitive. A bone-stock WRX on RE92s next to an Integra Type R on stock RE010s would be a really not fun uphill battle. Nevermind the fact that the WRX tires would probably catch fire or implode because well... they are what they are.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:10 PM   #19
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Yup, the idea of a showroom stock class, especially if you include tires under that, is pretty much ludicrous. Show me any sanctioning body that actually has something like that.

And once you allow tires, its a good idea to add the other stuff.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:33 PM   #20
MrDestructo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhoppe
You guys are funny.

Basically, shut up

-Tom
hehe, I was wondering how long it would take before I would get a response like that.



You guys need to lighten up! The sway bar thing has been beat to death and back, and everyone seems to like the results(for an otherwise stock car that is). I just love coming on here and throwing stuff like that out there to see how up tight people are about their Subaru knowledge.

Peace...

Last edited by MrDestructo; 12-14-2005 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:51 PM   #21
ChrisDP
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Wait... you had to post something to reaffirm how long (or well, completely not-long) it takes before Hoppe makes an elitist **** post? :-D Now that's comedy right there!
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:04 PM   #22
MrDestructo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDP
Wait... you had to post something to reaffirm how long (or well, completely not-long) it takes before Hoppe makes an elitist **** post? :-D Now that's comedy right there!
No, I'm still at work and I'm bored.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDP
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this meant that the current rules allow more cars to be competitive. A bone-stock WRX on RE92s next to an Integra Type R on stock RE010s would be a really not fun uphill battle. Nevermind the fact that the WRX tires would probably catch fire or implode because well... they are what they are.
It is true that autocrossing on RE 92's is an uphill battle. Actually, it's more like bringing a toothpick to a gunfight. But, mine didn't seem like they were on the edge of catching fire. My fronts were chunking around the outside edge, but that was about it. Got to learn on something, right?
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:13 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draken
When were you running your Alfa and 2.5RS?

.
The Alfa was in San Diego and Irvine back in the early nineties. The RS was in Columbus in around 2000. In both cars, I was pretty bad.

Hoppe: you still suck, we need a real stock class
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Old 12-14-2005, 09:25 PM   #25
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Aren't some of the regions running ST stock classes? I would think those would prove popular- guys not wanting to spring for R compounds and another set of rims and not qute ready to make the jump to the ST classes.

I've always thought it would be "fair" to choose a swaybar for stock class- front or rear- your choice- ends any argument on what platform (awd/fwd/rwd) benefits more.
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