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Old 12-15-2005, 12:27 PM   #1
TubeDriver
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Default Will the STI win AS at the National level?

Some of the recent threads ("06 SOLO II rules book" and the "whatever happened to stock classes?") got me thinking. Any thoughts on the STIs ability to win AS at the National level? In general, I would say that the STI is significantly faster than the S2000, braking ability is almost the same, corner entry is a bit slower but corner exit is probably better than the S2000. The STI does not handle transitions as well as the S2000. Still, the only major factor I can see holding it back is the STIs lack of front camber (<-1). Thoughts?

My interest is due to the fact that I will be driving an S2000 in SCCA AS next season (been generally limited to smaller, local clubs for the last few years), my wife has been competing for the last couple of years in STX with an WRX but may get an STI for next season and I have a friend who will be competing in AS with an 05 STI.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:34 PM   #2
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In stock trim I don't think it's nimble enough to keep up with the S2000, Porsche 911, C4 Vette etc. S2000 might not be as quick off a corner, but it'll wreck the STi in transitions. Have you done the typical Saini bar-and-alignment setup? Not sure what you need to make that work on the newer cars, but at least on the older S2000s it makes a world of improvement in making the car easier to drive fast.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:44 PM   #3
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Yea, I have the Comptech front bar, -2.5 rear, -1.5 front (I did skip the tiny bit of front toe out though). The newer AP2 seem to require the same setup as the older ones although I currently have my front bar set to soft/medium (which is still 200% stiffer than the OEM bar).

I agree that the S2000 will probably always be faster in a slalom but on the bigger, faster national level courses I wonder if the STI's speed advantage would compensate on the straights and out of corners?

I should add that my *guess* is that the STI will be faster after setup has been sorted out and drivers have a few season of experience (in the STI). I base this on my experience driving an STI (briefly) and seeing how well the STI (and EVOs) are starting to do at the local club level.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisDP
In stock trim I don't think it's nimble enough to keep up with the S2000, Porsche 911, C4 Vette etc. S2000 might not be as quick off a corner, but it'll wreck the STi in transitions. Have you done the typical Saini bar-and-alignment setup? Not sure what you need to make that work on the newer cars, but at least on the older S2000s it makes a world of improvement in making the car easier to drive fast.

Last edited by TubeDriver; 12-15-2005 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:57 PM   #4
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I certainly think the car could trophy. I think it will take an 05 STi, 275' Kumho V710's a big front bar some $$$shocks and Mark Daddio. Maybe throw in a day of rain as well.

This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:58 PM   #5
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might also consider the changes in the 06 sti .. its alot differnt than an 04 wonder how much the new center diff control is worth
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:59 PM   #6
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The thing is, "the bigger faster national courses" don't usualy require lots of horsepower. You get up to speed basically once, and maintain that higher national style speed throughout. Not many courses have 4 or 5 sections where you accelerate from 20mph to 60mph. Usualy you get up to 50mph, and keep between 40-60 for most of it. So no huge adavantage to a powerful car.

The only chance an STi has it at Pros, at places like Wendover where you have some fast section and a tight turn around. But then again, you usualy have lots of transitions on the long skinny lots. So basicaly, I agree with ChrisDasPooper on this one.

Chris H.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratt_finkel
I certainly think the car could trophy. I think it will take an 05 STi, 275' Kumho V710's a big front bar some $$$shocks and Mark Daddio. Maybe throw in a day of rain as well.

This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.

If only we had more shock options for the 05 & 06's. Other than throwing big money as you said towards them there is nothing for us on a tighter budget. I think it could trophy as well.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratt_finkel
This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.

87 cone slalom = S2000 driver's wet dream
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:08 PM   #9
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What about the Ohlins WR1 struts?

06 STIs are like another 50 pounds heavier than 05s, according to carpoint specs. No idea how they did that.

Also, back when a friend of mine was blinging out his Neon for DS (I have since called him $5k shocks, since he put JRZs in), he was able to legally use "crash bolts" to get more negative camber out of the car. The crash bolt was basically a smaller diameter bolt intended to allow more slop to bring a car's alignment back into spec after reparing crash damage. Given the size of the STI's camber bolt, if a smaller crash bolt could be used in its place, you should be able to get quite a bit more camber out of it.

I'd love to see someone with high-dollar nitrogen-preloaded struts in an STI.

-Mike
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:19 PM   #10
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You must be speaking of Micheal Lee. Black neon, ran in DS/GS, when i was running my 2.5RS iin GS. he and Jeff Winchel drove it in DS, then Jerald Lowe and Stephen Uei drove it in GS.

i have nothing of use to add...just brought up memories. aaaahhhhh.

chris h.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat
The crash bolt was basically a smaller diameter bolt intended to allow more slop to bring a car's alignment back into spec after reparing crash damage. Given the size of the STI's camber bolt, if a smaller crash bolt could be used in its place, you should be able to get quite a bit more camber out of it.

I'd love to see someone with high-dollar nitrogen-preloaded struts in an STI.

-Mike
Unfortunnately, not all cars are allowed to run crash bolts, including subarus.
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
he and **** ******* drove it in DS
we do not speak he who we do not mention's name on this board! 100 lashings for your insolence, rally car driver!
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Old 12-15-2005, 05:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat
What about the Ohlins WR1 struts?

I believe these are around $2000 for the set and I am not sure if they have them for 05's either. Either way I would much rather have the single adjustable koni inserts for much less.
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:11 PM   #14
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Well, some interesting points. Perhaps the STI might be more competitive at smaller, local events due to the greater speed variations (squirt down short straight, decreasing radius turn followed by another 1-2 gear squirt back kind of thing)? Both the EVOs and the STIs are putting down pretty respectable times in the events I attend.
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:13 PM   #15
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I still think ChrisIDP when I see his username

I agree with what him and stickboy said. National courses are momentum maintenance and the S2K will win there. I do think the STi has what it takes to trophy and I have a good feeling someone will do that if they make it to nationals, but I don't think they have what it takes to win, even with daddio behind the wheel.

-Tom
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:43 PM   #16
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The stock STi suspension allows for a pretty good bit of adjustment, I think by getting a special alignment should easily make the car much more nimble. Also, as far as getting more neg.camber- could you use escentric bolts in place of the OEM shock mount bolts? This would easily allow for another .75^ of negative camber.
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Old 12-15-2005, 08:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlzmo400r
The stock STi suspension allows for a pretty good bit of adjustment, I think by getting a special alignment should easily make the car much more nimble. Also, as far as getting more neg.camber- could you use escentric bolts in place of the OEM shock mount bolts? This would easily allow for another .75^ of negative camber.
Nope, OEM only. With pushing and pulling -1.5 to -1.8 is possible on the 05s. Thats with a lot of pulling though

-Tom
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Old 12-15-2005, 08:33 PM   #18
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I've driven both cars... the STi will never consistently out run the S2000, 911, C4 Vette at a national level autocross. ProSolo's excluded. The S2000 beats the STi through sweepers AND slaloms.
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Old 12-15-2005, 09:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubeDriver
Well, some interesting points. Perhaps the STI might be more competitive at smaller, local events due to the greater speed variations (squirt down short straight, decreasing radius turn followed by another 1-2 gear squirt back kind of thing)? Both the EVOs and the STIs are putting down pretty respectable times in the events I attend.
I'm guessing that lousy surfaces give a benefit here as the STi can get some more traction. Now for some real speculation, I think perhaps driving an S2000 close to it's potential is harder than doing so with an STi. Not an issue at Nationals with great drivers in all the cars at the top, but something to consider for local stuff. Also your point is valid that constant 55->20->55 stuff will be good for the STi.
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Old 12-15-2005, 11:22 PM   #20
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NO the STi will not likely win AS as long as the S2000 is in the same class, same with the C4 vette. Pro-solo it has a chance. The STi is not easier to drive to the limit. It is easier to get to 95% but that last 5% takes a great driver, the same type of skilled driver that it takes to get 100% out of the S2k.
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Old 12-15-2005, 11:46 PM   #21
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Amen. The STi does make the average driver look above average. The S2000 makes the average driver look like a chump. IMO, its harder to get 100% out of the STi than it is the S2000.
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:11 AM   #22
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Interesting thread. Good points indeed. I would tend to second those analysis but I must stay optimistic. We'll see next year if STIs can change the S2000's supremacy...

Last edited by bouchon; 12-16-2005 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:36 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouchon
Interesting thread. Good points indeed. I would tend to second those analysis but I must stay optimistic. We'll see next year if STIs can't change the S2000's supremacy...
Well if you are running WDCR events next year I'll look forward to watching you do your best. I'm driving an STi in STU next year and will work to de-throne Mike Neary from his STU champioship.

Dave
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Old 12-16-2005, 02:58 AM   #24
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i run my sti in AS locally, i am a noobie driver and there is no doubt I am holding my car back haha, but a good driver (fun runs!) got in my sti and on his 2nd run matched the top s2k run for that day. That was early on in the season. As the season progressed I got better, at the very last event AS was scheduled to run first heat so the course was kinda gritty and pretty cold (ambient temp like high 40's low 50's I think) so I think those variables may have helped me get a bit of an advantage since I think i had more grip for power lay down. Although the course was a fast and stay fast layout so i dont think that helped. Anyway I got the win in AS that day, I was real happy, I hope next season I can continue to progress (I still suck).

Overall locally like everyone said the STi can do very well, i got my car a big FSB and maxed front camber just still on street tires (figure I can learn better on them) and it is really fun, I think having the s2k's to base my progress on is cool.
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Old 12-16-2005, 08:26 AM   #25
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Cool Andrew. Try to get to a bigger event some time to see how you stand against the muckety-mucks. I did it a couple of years ago and got my butt kicked. It helped me to become a better driver eventually. I'm at the point where I am a fast regional driver and can hang at at tour event but would still get my butt handed to me at Nationals. Keep it up brother! Try out some r-compounds on that puppy too if you can.

Dave
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